[dwalstad]

Hello Everyone,

My book's website now has a 9 page article Small Planted Tanks for Pet Shrimp. It can be downloaded (for free) from the website. I wrote it to further promote my book and help beginning hobbyists.

The article describes my shrimp bowls as well as the more recent DSM setups (Tom Barr's method). I am very pleased with the DSM tanks. They contain carpet plants, plants that I never thought I would be able to grow.

Website for Ecology of the Planted Aquarium
http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/00388.htm

 

[mudboots]

Great article! I am trying this with a 3 gallon pico at my office; though I did not wait quite as long before filling it up with water. No critters yet, except that there's a tadpole and a few snails to keep the system alive until I aquire my tenants later on. My floaters were an Azolla sp., but I am moving those to the NPT at home and will be using a Salvinia sp. (little bit bigger root system).

 

[dwalstad]

I am trying this with a 3 gallon pico at my office; though I did not wait quite as long before filling it up with water. QUOTE]

I waited 10 weeks, because I didn't want to fool with any tank problems over Christmas holidays. Otherwise, I probably would have added water a couple weeks earlier.

 

[Philosophos]

I wouldn't mind seeing the results of some DSM NPT's. I've found low light setups are always a pain to get carpeting plants rooting on; it's harder to provide good spread.

You could probably get an NPT growing in faster with some very high lighting, back it off for a while to regular levels, then fill.

 

[mudboots]

I wouldn't mind seeing the results of some DSM NPT's. I've found low light setups are always a pain to get carpeting plants rooting on; it's harder to provide good spread.

You could probably get an NPT growing in faster with some very high lighting, back it off for a while to regular levels, then fill.

While I wouldn't consider my DSM NPT to have carpet plants (foreground is Crypt. x willisii...awesome roots underground, but not yet very dense on top), the many, many, MANY mistakes I made in the tank at the house has allowed for a very nice carpet in what is now "lower" light. I say "lower" because I have realized that I have no idea how much PAR those stinking T5-HO's are pushing to the substrate anymore, just that everything got better when I cut off half of them (now have 1.24 or 1.25 wpg on a 125 gallon tank) and stopped all water movement.

Maybe this weekend I'll post a pic or three if I get back with reasonable time to spare. Not that it's DSM, but it might be a good example since it went from relatively high lighting for sufficient growth of the carpet plants' root system to relatively lower lighting, perhaps simulating what it might be like doing DSM...

 

[mudboots]

I am trying this with a 3 gallon pico at my office; though I did not wait quite as long before filling it up with water. QUOTE]

I waited 10 weeks, because I didn't want to fool with any tank problems over Christmas holidays. Otherwise, I probably would have added water a couple weeks earlier.

Hah! Makes good sense. My problem in NOT waiting 10 weeks was that I'm like a little kid staring at Christmas presents under the tree several weeks before Christmas and simply can't wait any longer. Ahhhhhh!!!!

 

[Philosophos]

Going from high to low light won't exactly simulate DSM. Not having nutrients in a column for easy uptake through the leaves usually means mind-blowing roots to compensate (at least that's my guess as to why). I'd say emersed HC has double or triple standard length of healthy submersed growth.

 

[dwalstad]

Hah! Makes good sense. My problem in NOT waiting 10 weeks was that I'm like a little kid staring at Christmas presents under the tree several weeks before Christmas and simply can't wait any longer. Ahhhhhh!!!!

Such energy and enthusiasm! I envy you. In contrast, I was dreading adding water to the tanks.

Philosophos, I'm not sure why you would want to decrease lighting levels during the emergent phase. Emergent plants can use all the light you can give them (my book, p. 146). Once plants are submerged, you can decrease light levels. However, I didn't. I just added floating plants and they automatically decreased light intensity.

 

[Philosophos]

Hi Diana,

I like to drop the lighting down before hand because I've found some plants melt or take on undesirable growth patterns with severe light/CO2 alterations when submerged. I've found glosso to be the best example with its alternate, vertical growth form and teardrop leaf structure. This issue doesn't seem to exist when emersed; leaves may change size, growth may slow, but there's no melting or frantic upward growth. I figure it's better to shorten the light cycle before filling, let them adjust to it, then deal with the stress of filling.

 

[mudboots]

Hence the problems with Crypt species IME. Maybe it's just my water or the way I do things so inconsistently, but I have come to expect leaf drop going from emmersed to submersed setups with my Crypts (or staring at them wrong for that matter). But I am very pleased with the roots on the Crypt and Stauro species, which make up pretty much the whole DSM Picotope aside from needleleaf java and Fissidens. The Stauro have not had leaf drop, and I can see the roots peeking through the glass in some places, while I can look under the aquarium and see a beautiful root system under the Crypts. And since I've filled it up, even having mixed slow release micros (for the emmersed phase of the Stauro sps) and having relatively high light (18 watts over a 3 gallon, but set high and angled) I have no algae (maybe the baby snails have something to do with that, but there are only a few and they are really tiny).

BTW - Diana, it's all that energy and enthusiasm that got me into so much trouble with my 125 NPT. #-o That said, it's all of those mistakes I made that taught me first hand just exactly what all of you pros had been talking about all along. And now that it's starting to look nice (since I've messed it up about as much as I possible can by now) I can finally smile without hearing sarcasm when Melinda says "it's really neat that it's all natural".

 

[dwalstad]

Hi Diana,

I like to drop the lighting down before hand because I've found some plants melt or take on undesirable growth patterns with severe light/CO2 alterations when submerged. I've found glosso to be the best example with its alternate, vertical growth form and teardrop leaf structure. This issue doesn't seem to exist when emersed; leaves may change size, growth may slow, but there's no melting or frantic upward growth. I figure it's better to shorten the light cycle before filling, let them adjust to it, then deal with the stress of filling.

Thanks for your explanation. Since my Glosso died out 3 days after purchase, you're way ahead of me here!

 

[Philosophos]

Glosso is trickier than people give it credit. I've found HC easier to keep by far, it just has some inconvenient CO2 demands once the water gets in.

What happened to it?

 

[dwalstad]

Glosso is trickier than people give it credit. I've found HC easier to keep by far, it just has some inconvenient CO2 demands once the water gets in.

What happened to it?

The purchased Glosso arrived (via mail) in okay shape. I planted the largest portion emergent-- in the two Dry Start Method Tanks. Neither tank was filled with water for 10 weeks-- as I wrote. The Glosso turned brown and died within 3 days. I submerged another portion from the same shipment in another tank filled with water. It didn't last much longer.

I wasn't all that surprised that the submerged Glosso died in ordinary NPTs. However, I was surprised that emergent plants in DSM tanks quickly turned brown and died.

In the Discussion section of my article "Small Planted Tanks for Pet Shrimp" I speculate that a plant hormone may have caused Glosso's death and leaf browning. I welcome comments on what I wrote in the article.

 

[Philosophos]

I gotten browning and melting after exposure to cold with my emersed glosso. I definitely agree that there's some sort of chemical that it releases though. I've had it melt simply from transport and the chain reaction killed already healthy, established glosso nearby. Whatever it is, the concentrations don't seem to be able to hold very well once submersed.

One bit I've noticed is that it seems to die from the bottom up, and if you leave it long enough sometimes it will re-establish from surviving lateral buds. Perhaps it's meant to be for the purpose of autofragmentation as a stress reaction?

I'll take a look over your article later tonight or tomorrow.

 

[alang]

Glosso is trickier than people give it credit. I've found HC easier to keep by far, it just has some inconvenient CO2 demands once the water gets in.

It appears from the pics in the article that the HC Diana grew emergent was doing fine without additional CO2 after the tank was flooded. I was encouraged with that since I want to have carpet plants in my new tank, but this comment has me worried for the longer term prospects of HC in a NPT.

I wonder if its just a matter of balancing the amount of HC so the CO2 generated in the tank can support it?

 

[Philosophos]

Seeing HC work in a DSM NPT is encouraging; to me it signals a very big advance in the hobby. I've found my HC growing phenomenally better with DSM, but I haven't tried it without CO2 post-fill. The roots are vastly longer, there's no melt on introduction, and it seems to change growth patters within a matter of days.

Perhaps getting it established is more the issue than having enough CO2 long-term. Adding tons of CO2 would definitely help the stuff to root/grow better in a traditional planting method, and getting good distribution to the bottom of a tank at those levels would require compressed CO2. When people use compressed CO2, they tend to push their light levels higher which would also contribute to it. Even then, HC is a pain to plant and establish in a filled tank compared to most species.

It may be that increased CO2 triggers rooting as well. I've noticed that plants on the high CO2 demand list are usually found in rivers, they're smaller, and they tend to grow near the water line. Getting caught along the side of the river bank, especially during low flow rates, would be a natural time for them to successfully establish roots.

Maybe it's some of both; the two concepts aren't mutually exclusive either.

Then again maybe it's neither and I've missed the point completely.

Either way, I think observing what happens over the next few months to year will say a lot. I'm wondering if the generally mulmy bottoms of an NPT are the sort of thing HC will do well with. There may need to be some adaptations as NPT tends to recreate more of a lake than a stream.

The plus side with all of this is that HC is very easy to grow emersed. Emersed growth trays are also incredibly cheap and easy to maintain. You can grow a big mat of HC from plugs inside a few months with minimal care. I think HC is something that everyone should try out if it's making it through DSM and no CO2.

Either way, nice work Diana. I'll be very happy if HC can be separated from compressed CO2.

 

[dwalstad]

Thanks for your comments.

I measured CO2 uptake in my DSM tanks versus the 1-gal bowls. Attached is the figure with measurements.

CO2 uptake was very little for the DSM tanks (red lines) in comparison to the shrimp bowls (green lines). The main difference between these tanks is the plant species. The shrimp bowls have robust submerged growers (Sagittaria subulata, etc) and the DSM tanks have only carpet plants. I predict that if carpet plants were in the bowls competing with S. subulata, they probably wouldn't survive.

I believe that HC and other carpet plants just aren't very competitive with other plants for taking up CO2. They don't seem to need that much CO2, as they seem to be doing fine with just 7-8 mg/l (see graph).

When you give them a good start (DSM) and then keep them by themselves as I have done, they do very well (they're currently thriving in both DSM tanks).

 

[Philosophos]

I posted about your findings over on Tom's site, and he said the exact same thing about CO2 competition. I didn't realize that it was such a sensitive thing in non-CO2 systems.

While I haven't done HC without CO2, I've found an air stone helps when CO2 appears to be limiting in a non-CO2 system. I'm guessing the ppm's may be lower, but the supply more constant; perhaps this would be acceptable enough for HC to coexist with more demanding plants? I'd hate to see NPT go through an iwagumi fad like high tech did.

 

[dwalstad]

I posted about your findings over on Tom's site, and he said the exact same thing about CO2 competition. I didn't realize that it was such a sensitive thing in non-CO2 systems.

While I haven't done HC without CO2, I've found an air stone helps when CO2 appears to be limiting in a non-CO2 system. I'm guessing the ppm's may be lower, but the supply more constant; perhaps this would be acceptable enough for HC to coexist with more demanding plants? I'd hate to see NPT go through an iwagumi fad like high tech did.

My opinion is that without CO2 injection, HC would have a very hard time co-existing with more robust plants.

An air-stone might help by facillitating leaf CO2 uptake. However, more robust plants nearby would just remove the increased CO2 (and grow faster), so the HC would be no better off.

BTW, the latest TAG (The Aquatic Gardener) (Jan-Mar 2010) has my article on measuring CO2 in my tanks.

 

[Philosophos]

I was kind of hoping that rapidly adding more air would replenish it at a far higher rate than plants could uptake. When working with compressed CO2, there's no real need for a mid day break; the plants don't take up more than 3-4% of what's offered by the most generous estimations. I was thinking at 1LPH per liter of column with air being 380mg/L CO2, there'd be plenty of turnover.

My own little experiment (with a drop checker; try not to laugh too loud) didn't seem to show fluctuations with an air stone either. It definitely didn't get as high of a level of CO2 as what builds up after a couple weeks of low surface disturbance, but it didn't do the mid-day dips that you've outlined on graphs related to the entire siesta method. When I turned off the aeration, the drop checker indicated a profile closer to what you've given for NPT's.

I really need to join up with AGA. The journal alone has been tempting me for far too long.

I'm also going to have to try some low tech DSM/HC tanks and try to push their limitations.