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Experiences with PPS-Classic and PPS-Pro

27K views 29 replies 17 participants last post by  bradac56 
#1 ·
Ok, this thread will tie in with this thread...
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-interesting-thread-amano-tanks-very-low.html

I am finishing up some experimentation that should leave me with some more solid information in a few weeks. At that time, i will add some of my thoughts to the mentioned thread.

So far, this is some of the history of my quest and how PPS pro fits into it currently.

History

Over the last year, i have been approaching this hobby from a very controlled perspective. My first effort in doing this was to study PPS classic very closely. The basic premise behind PPS is to give your plants the nutrients they need, but do it in a way that was easily controlled and modified as the needs of your tank changed from week to week.

I sort of adopted this approach and mixed up precise solutions for each of my macro nutrients. Mind you, this was actually a more complicated approach then what PPS intends.

My goal was to maintain a level of nutrients with precise dosing. I targeted 30ppm of CO2, 10-20ppm of NO3, 20-30ppm of K, and 1-2ppm of PO4. I dosed daily and tested often to reach a fairly solid level of nutrients.

At that point in time, most of my aquariums were scaped. Maintaining higher levels of nutrients still produced fast growth. I had to slow the growth. I accomplished this by limiting the amount of light over the tank. I did this by not changing the intensity, but rather the duration of lighting. I was running some tanks as low as 7 hours of lighting a day. This worked for me for about 6 months, but I was still perplexed with how many people in the hobby were running their tanks with very low levels of everything…..light, co2, nutrients…..

I decided to try a more radical experiment with a freshly set up tank. I studied the parameters of many of amano's tanks and attempted to have success with similar parameters.

First was co2. I couldn't believe how low his co2 levels were, but I targeted similar levels for my experiment. I ended up at roughly 8-12ppm of co2.

Next were my nutrients. I targeted about 1-5ppm of N, .5ppm of P, and 5-10ppm of K.

Next, lighting. Well, I didn't see anything over powering about my lights, so I just set the timers to 10 hours a day.

Over the next 3 months I watched my levels closely…..

What I found

My plants grew just as healthy, and perhaps even more healthy. I know my fish were happy with the low levels of nutrients and co2. I achieve full growth at a much slower rate. This was great for aquascapes. And as a positive side effect, my fight with GSA was FINALLY long gone.

Along came PPS Pro

PPS Pro is almost exactly what I was targeting except I was dosing individually. In a dark lab somewhere Edward determined the ratios of each nutrient and put them all together in one solution. Perhaps the most powerful thing about the new method is the timing of dosing? That is yet to be determined.

I mixed up the PPS solution and started…..

I have been dosing PPS Pro for about a month and a half now. So far my results have been very positive.

Here are some tips:

Testing?

Everyone loves the phrase "No testing required", but lets be realistic here. Even if we were just keeping fish, we would need to test to some degree. Every hobby has its tools and steps. Testing is an important part of our hobby. Even if you never have a problem, understanding your water and your test kits will help you understand why you are NOT having a problem and help you address things when you DO have a problem.

CO2?

Edward recommends constant co2 (do not turn off at night).

Then of course there is the amano camp. Turn of co2 at night and aerate your water.

My take on this…. I turn my co2 off at night. I don't worry about ph swings because I really use very little co2. Will I change this…..most certainly. I very often change something to see the effects. I am like all of us….looking for the perfect growth. The hardest part is to have the patience to change one thing and wait weeks to see the effects.

I recommend that beginners target 15ppm of co2 and keep it steady night and day

Pressurized vs DIY?

There is no question for me. Pressurized!!! If you think you cant afford it, then buy less light, run your lights less for lower electricity bill, buy a smaller tank, save a dollar a day for three months.

How to deal with tap water issues - high N or P?

Do smaller water changes. Instead of 50%, do 30%. PPS - Pro allows this because of limited nutrient build up. Also, smaller water changes prevent your tap from making drastic changes in your aquarium. My first mistake was to adjust the formula of PPS- Pro to handle the nutrients in my tap. If your tap water is off quite a bit, do smaller water changes.

Nutrient deficiancies?

Yes, PPS-Pro is a lighter system of dosing. It was developed with the aquascaper in mind. It was designed for slower more controlled growth. I found that the initial recommended dosing of 1ml per 10 gallons to be a pretty good start, however, you will find that you may need to add some more depending on your light intensity and your plant mass. My one tank is growing fantastic with the recommended dosing, my other tank has some stronger light and higher plant mass. I had to cut my light a bit and up my dosing a few ml…..so far so good.

How to deal with needing more nutrients?

You could always increase your dosing. Or decrease your lighting. The solution is balanced and the idea of dosing in the morning really prevents you from getting into trouble quick, but you should always be mindful of your plants conditions and the parameters of your water.

Conclusion

I am always moving things around in my travels in this hobby. So far, PPS-Pro has been the closest thing to great I have found in a system for aquascapers. I would imagine it is very close to the ADA step method, but Edward gives us all the numbers and the explanation so we can learn and adapt.

Please feel free to ask any questions. I hope this has helped at least one person

jB
 
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#2 ·
Re: Experiences with PPS and PPS pro

Thank you for posting your observations, Jason. I must admit that I am becoming a convert to PPS-Pro after having switched my 10 gal over about 2 months ago, and currently switching over one of my two 50's (second will soon be switched).

I have kept my CO2 around 30ppm, and cut water changes down to once every 3 weeks or so.

I have been meaning to keep some sort of table to see how NO3 and PO4 levels vary in that time frame, but until recently haven't had the time to do it right. I had also considered increasing the PO4 levels in the stock solution of macros, but Edward talked me out of it. My thought had been to keep gsa under control, and pop some of the reds out a little more. That's the only difference I have seen between my modified EI which I was using before and PPS-Pro - that plants like L. aromatica, don't show quite as much red as they did prior. Do you have any observations on that?

Are you still doing weekly water changes?
 
#7 · (Edited)
Re: Experiences with PPS and PPS pro

My thought had been to keep gsa under control, and pop some of the reds out a little more. That's the only difference I have seen between my modified EI which I was using before and PPS-Pro - that plants like L. aromatica, don't show quite as much red as they did prior. Do you have any observations on that?
Yes, many plants we regard as 'red' are not really red unless chemically stressed. What I found is that these plants can still become red, very red and much larger, healthier and nicer looking under stronger light intensities. I don't believe there is such a thing as too much light in a planted aquarium. We no longer have to be afraid to use the strongest lighting systems available.

Thank you
Edward
 
#4 ·
Re: Experiences with PPS and PPS pro

Ditto jB on the excellent write up.

Edwards system is working extremely well with my "test drive" tank. My Barclaya longifolia is sensitive to low potassium levels. It gets pinholes well before the other plants. I've learned to add a little extra potassium sulfate that's in a separate solution to help with this minor problem.

On the other hand, I may be able to turn the lighting down some and lower the CO2 level with the pressurized system. This may be a solution about needing to add extra potassium that I haven't tried yet.

Overall, I think Edwards PPS-Pro is an outstanding "one size fits all" approach to aquatic fert methodology!

Left C
 
#8 ·
Re: Experiences with PPS and PPS pro

Edwards system is working extremely well with my "test drive" tank. My Barclaya longifolia is sensitive to low potassium levels. It gets pinholes well before the other plants. I've learned to add a little extra potassium sulfate that's in a separate solution to help with this minor problem. Overall, I think Edwards PPS-Pro is an outstanding "one size fits all" approach to aquatic fert methodology!

Left C
Thank you Left C!
It is a simple system and it works. We can now help new people interested in staring this exciting hobby. The New To Planted Aquariums forum is the right place to start.



Thank you
Edward
 
#5 ·
Re: Experiences with PPS and PPS pro

Awesome writeup Jason! I'm about to start dosing PPS-Pro and your testing is a solid info. I really like the minimalist approach to maintaining an aquarium - just dose what is needed and given that I do alot of water changes, PPS-Pro will allow me to make adjustments as my tank grows.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Re: Experiences with PPS and PPS pro

I am now also a convert.

I just thought I would give my report and observations as well because I have been following everyone else's here with interest since I first started dosing PPS Pro.

Up to this I have run highlight tanks based on EI principles, and will readily admit I have had good success with that method, but I wanted to try something different mainly because of the water change regime associated with it. When I got busy working this aspect would get neglected and I wanted something a bit more forgiving. I also found I was wiping down the glass weekly when running EI even when I was doing weekly 50% water changes. I had no major problems with algae just an annoying build up on the glass (not GDA or GSA). Also I found that if I missed a water change the water quality (visually) would reduce dramatically over the coming week.

I was fascinated by the lean dosing associated with PPS Pro and this is why I wanted to try it, at first I was circumspect and wasn't sure if I would hit problems quite quickly with deficiency's with such a lean dosing regime, but I am happy to report this has not been the case, overall I am very pleased with the results even though its still early days I am confident it will work long term on my tanks.

I am running two tanks atm, a 15g @ 4WPG and a 40g @ 3WPG, both are heavily planted although the 40 gallon is only up and running for 2 weeks now (new scape, new dosing regime) the 15g has been setup from scratch about 6-7 weeks ago and dosed with PPS Pro from the start. both tanks are doing very well indeed, nice growth, no problems with algae except for some diatoms in the 15g, which one would expect from a new setup, no build up on the glass and the water looks much cleaner even with no water changes for a couple of weeks. I would say the water is much cleaner looking overall over a longer period running PPS Pro.

The 15g is fully stocked with a small shoal of fish (only last week) and the 40g has a low fish stock level for now. Local tap water quality around these parts would be good, 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate in the tapwater, water is soft with KH 1, GH 2, water is drinkable direct from the tap, anyway my point is that what's added to these tanks up to now has come mainly from the PPS Pro stock solutions.

Overall a good result for me so far. I am just dosing at the recommended doses up to now, I do not feel I need to dose any more for the moment. In the 15g I dose Tropica plant nutrition as trace at the dose recommended on the instructions (5ml per 50l per week, tank is 54l I dose 5ml per week, 5x1ml) in the 40g I dose CSM+B using Edwards formula. CO2 I run at about 20ppm in both tanks (a convenient figure for me to reach no other reason I run it this high) I switch off CO2 each night via a solenoid and start it up again 2 hours before lights on, so far this is working well.

Thats it really, I just thought I would add to the thread as I was initially encouraged by others doing the same elsewhere in this section of the forum. All I can say is that its definitely working for me with good results (pics in the aquascaping section). The water change regime suits me much better, growth is good, water quality is good, both tanks pearl nicely, to me it looks like a winner of a dosing formula and I am glad I have tried it, and as Edward would say.........Thank you (to Edward that is)
 
#10 ·
Bert - I actually made the mistake of adjusting my solution for my tap. I am now starved of nitrogen and have to add a little extra. To alieviate this, just do less of a water change. I am currently doing 30% a week and dont plan to do any more or less then that. It is hard for me to determine my NPK levels in each tank because of substrate. One tank has AS and the other has root tabs (experiment, more to come on this as well). I have measured my non AS tank and i am finding that my N is low.....very low...because of my mixing mistake. I will fix this in the coming days with a new solution.

As for color, i never really worried about that. I figure if its a red plant, it will be red. if it has some highlights, then cool. I know lots of people try to achieve that, but it was never a focus for me.

Left C - Yes, i agree with you on K, i am actually thinking of making up an extra solution for just K. Just to get some more into the tank. I have notices some slight yellowing of older leaves....but again, any change will bring on some problems, so i am not ready to say pps pro requires suplimented K. Time will have to tell on this.

Edward - :)

zig - im jealous of your tap:) Also, it seems that EI's biggest downfall is GSA. It seems much more prevelant in that system then the others.

jB
 
#14 ·
Hi Peter16,

You will probably get some discussion on this; some say yes, some say no. I do not run carbon in my filters unless I am trying to remove something specific from the water, like medication.
 
#18 ·
I just started dosing PPS-Pro today and I have never seen my tank's plants pearled so much. I'm so excited! It's a 'brand' new tank that I just started. Just rocks and basically gloss with a school of serpae tetras and rummy nose. Will definitely update on this.
 
#19 ·
Hi anhtu402,

I don't see a lot of fast growing stem plants on your list for the 29 gallon. I sometimes get major algae growth about a week or two after starting up a tank. If you see algae starting, keep dosing but immediately cut your light down substantially, maybe in half! If I have an algae bloom I wait about a month, then I start increasing the light by about 1 hour a month.
 
#20 ·
Thanks for the tip Seattle, I appreciate it. What do you recommend for plants for high lights. I am somewhat picky and want stems that look like Ammannia Gracilis the most. Thanks...
 
#21 ·
Hi anhtu402,

Everyone has their own favorite "start-up plants", I like Hygrophilia, Rotala, Bacopa, Ceratophyllym demersum, and watersprite. These are just a few of the types of plants that will help keep your ammonia, nitrite, nitrate levels under control during the first several weeks.
 
#22 ·
Back with another question.
My tank appears to have a kno3 deficiency and im dosing the pps-pro method, what ways can i increase this one macro ?

Can you make up a small liquid solution with just kno3? that lasts a couple of doses or something.

Thanks in advance.
Peter
 
#24 · (Edited)
Iwould suggest that a lot of defficiencies that look like nutrient defficiencies are actually CO2 defficiencies.

I don't mean that the ppm at DC is not good but the circulation can cause problems :)

I tried the PPS Pro a long time ago when my CO2 wasn't really up to scratch and went from regime to regime. It didn't work at that time but can openly admit that was more than likely due to the CO2 than the regime.

I currently use the EI method and will more than likely stay with it. I get a minute amount of GSA on 5% or less of my Anubias leaves that have another leaf very close above it so I don't think GSA can be attributed to EI :) . My main reason for sticking with EI these days since I got circulation and CO2 under control is that for me a 50% water change is much better than testing with hobby kits I don't trust!!! I don't intend on spending lots of money on quality test kits when EI is working.

A note to add to Jason's observations:

Whilst light is accepted as being the driver for growth the role of CO2 is often ignored where I think the two work hand in hand with the latter being the much more important. When reducing to 15ppm 24/7 then the growth is less than running 30ppm 24/7. Therefore less nutrients are required. Although many people reading my posts would think I am saying that light above 2WPG is 'silly' that isn't the case. I mean to say that it is unnecessary especially for the beginner or someone who hasn't got their CO2 circulation sorted out to near perfection ;)

So under any light what the plants need is not 'high' CO2 but adequate and stable CO2. This can be at whatever level chosen but must remain pretty much at a stable level. Then the plants don't have to stop to adapt to a changing level and the algae doesn't step in.

Therefore I think we can use CO2 as a limiter without algae issues BUT this would mean we need to be pretty sure that our 'system' has the capability to make sure that a lower ppm at measured area (DC) does not let other areas reach 0 or move up or down all the time.

Personally I think high CO2 (30ppm average will mean closer to 100ppm at source) is an excess just as EI is dosing excess. The plants may not be growing faster under a very high injection than they would under a stable lower level but with it being an excess is it more 'forgiving' for people who haven't got the setup perfect and therefore areas that may be unstable within the tank may still be at an 'adequate' level under a high injection and excess in other areas whereas under lower injection these areas may be under an 'adequate' level. If this lower level is at an 'adequate' level in all areas this would of course mean less nutrient needed :)

Room for error therefore just like with EI.

My injection is high at above 30ppm run on solenoid (near yellow DCs) and I have a heavily stocked tank (33USG with 28 Rasboras, 6Corys, 2 Otos and uncountable amounts of shrimp (nearly 2"/USG + shrimp) but I keep it that way because I see no problems with the fish. However I do have very high turnover and a good water turbulence.

I should add that this was under what is considered 'low light' of 0.9 - 1.4WPG of T5HO so people will argue this is the factor. This is a different argument. lol I currently use 1.2WPG (max) of high power LEDs and Parwise this will be much higher than 'lowlight' which again is another argument :)

By max I mean the whole 1.2WPG is only used for the central 4 hours with the lighting staggering from 0.2WPG for the first hour to the max at 2½hours and then max for 4 hours before repeating the cycle in the opposite direction for the final 2½hours (total 9 hours photoperiod.) This means that although the PAR is very heavy at full lights the photoperiod being so small and staggering up and down through the cycle reduces the 'total' lighting and may push it back down to the 'lowlight' bracket. This tank only has slow growers in it (Anubias/Ferns/Crypts) and therefore should be susceptible to algae. It never has fast growers in even at startup without any algae issues

I guess its one of the trade offs really but I wouldn't suggest lean dosing/PPS to anyone who has highlight without high water turnover and good circulation as I think using the 15ppm (non excess) is what causes problems in these cases.

Interesting read of people's experiences. Good thread :)

AC
 
#27 ·
My main reason for sticking with EI these days since I got circulation and CO2 under control is that for me a 50% water change is much better than testing with hobby kits I don't trust!!! I don't intend on spending lots of money on quality test kits when EI is working.
Don't let Tom Barr here that, he's been going a bit crazy on the other forum *cough*plantedtank*cough* about how EI isn't an excuse to be lazy and that good regular testing is always a must no matter what system you use ;)

- Brad
 
#26 ·
1) I don't understand why it is necessary to dose with K2SO4 if Potassium is supplied with both KNO3 and K2HPO4...
2) I haven't noted any posts on this thread about testing. What testing besides CO2 is being done with the PPS pro system?
3) What test kits are recommended? There seem to be so many but I would like to have some kind of review or critique of the test kits for nitrate and Phosphate, and the pH paper that is best for aquariums.
4) Although there is a lot of cross talk about water changes, what percent change and how often are changes necessary or desirable when using PPS pro system?

Thanks for your comments which are greatly appreciated!
 
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