glutaraldehyde instead of excel

156586 Views 258 Replies 78 Participants Last post by Aquaticz, Oct 17, 2013

allen

Discussion Starter · Sep 30, 2006

Hey guys

Last week I have been using glutaraldehde in place of excel.I'm using a 2.8% solution.It's suppose to be about the same as excel but alot cheaper.I paid $16.95 a gallon.

I tried it in two tanks,a 10 gal. planted and a 60gal. planted.
It had a different effect in each tank on some of the same plants.Below I'll list each tank with the dose and effect I noticed.

60gal.,192 watts,11hours lights on,co2 injected,ferts daily,plants are red tiger lotus,rotalia indica,sword,ludwigia,anubias,hair grass and crypts,34 fish.

I dosed 30ml 9/23/6 after a water change then 10ml daily.
On 9/25/6 the angelfish spawned so it seems to have no effect on the fish.
9/27/6 the sword plant started growing fast.3-4" growth of new leaves daily.this plant has not grown much in the last 3 weeks.

It's been a week so far,water is clear,plants are growing fast and the little bit of algae I had is gone.

riccia is ok.

Now for the 10gal.,30 watts 8-10 hours,no co2,ferts daily,plants are sword,red tiger lotus,ludwigia,and bolbitis,tiger barb fry,cherry shrimp and alot of hair algae.

I dosed this tank heavier to see what would happen.
5ml daily.
9/23/6 dosed at 10:00am and by 7:00pm algae shows signs of dying.fish and shrimp are fine.

9/24/6 riccia is dying off.All the algae dead.fish are fine.water is a little cloudy.

9/25/6 water is clear.I have a few strands of moss in this tank.I think it's java moss.It is growing very fast.

9/30/6 moss has grown around 10" this week.this moss has been in here for 8 months without much growth.The bolbitis is a little darker green and the leaves have widened.Looks healthier then it ever has.

Other than the riccia dying and the water turning cloudy one day it seems to work well.

If I notice anything else I'll add it to this post.

Allen

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Zapins

· #61 · Nov 9, 2006

Soo.... Excel is just modified to make it less toxic?

Has it been modified in any way to make it more effective at giving CO2 to plants than glutaraldehyde?

Also, does anyone know if Excel is pure? Or is it laced w/ other chemicals?

I was thinking about running some lab tests on it to see how it is put together in the hopes of gaining an idea of how to make it, but I need a pure sample in order to run the tests.

jude_uc

· #62 · Nov 14, 2006

Dennis and others who are experimenting? How often are you adding your mixture? Have you noticed any problems? Are the shrimp doing fine with levels you're dosing? Thanks!

-Adam

dennis

· #63 · Nov 14, 2006

I am adding 10ml of 2.5% solution to a 29 gallon aquarium every day. If I am doing the math correct, and I am pretty sure of it now, that equals 2.5mg/l added daily. I have Amano shrimp, nerite snails and dwarf cories- all seem fine. In the past, overdosing Excel generally killed Amanos and Nerites so I take that as an Ok sign. The long term effects of this on the fauna is unknown though and I am beginning to wonder how I am affecting them in the end.

Algae is definately receeding. Concentrations that I have described are only detrimental to the algae with direct application though I am noticing that no more algae is returning and CO2 levels have remained the same. However, I increased the dosing of every other nutrient so that may play a part also.

epicfish

· #64 · Nov 18, 2006

Zapins said:
Soo.... Excel is just modified to make it less toxic?

Has it been modified in any way to make it more effective at giving CO2 to plants than glutaraldehyde?

Also, does anyone know if Excel is pure? Or is it laced w/ other chemicals?

I was thinking about running some lab tests on it to see how it is put together in the hopes of gaining an idea of how to make it, but I need a pure sample in order to run the tests.

No, it's not pure, it's combined with "ameliorating" chemicals.

You can try to distill it and then run GC-MS or whatever you want on the separate fractions that are collected.

AndyT.

· #65 · Nov 18, 2006

Okay, I don't think I'm dumb, but I got lost...

Gomer said:
time to find out exactly what is in Excel. I have a big bottle of it and when I get free time, I'll have to do LC-MS, organic phase GC-MS and maybe even ESI-MS.

epicfish said:
Tony, I'd be interested in helping you figure out what's in it. I might grab a bottle sometime and run GC-FTIR-MS on it...unless you beat me to it. =P

epicfish said:
You can try to distill it and then run GC-MS or whatever you want on the separate fractions that are collected.

Here is what I think you guys are talking about:
MS is Mass Spectrometry, not Multiple Sclerosis.

All the others, LC, GC, ESI are different methods of performing mass spectrometry?

Now I know that all of you are referring to possibly using equipment you have access to to perform this analysis, so the answer to my next question may be simply that you don't have access to this type of equipment but:

Wouldn't ion chromatography be better for determining what precisely is in Excel and the proportions in which it occurs?

I'm aware that it is much more complex than simply tossing some Excel in the IC and waiting for it to spit out an analysis, but I thought that was what IC specialized in doing.

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epicfish

· #66 · Nov 18, 2006

I hadn't given any consideration to the ameliorating chemicals. Without a pure sample of the main ingredient of Excel, any of these methods would give spectrums that would be impossible to figure out.

IC would work to see the functional groups and they're relative abundancies, you're right. MS would give common m/z groups which will lead to a better understanding of the actual structure of the compound. NMR would give even more information about the proximities of the carbons and functional groups to each other.

Even if we did manage to get "pure" Excel, figuring out the structure wouldn't be such a simple task given our limited resources to this equipment.

gnatster

· #67 · Nov 19, 2006

Need to remind you folks this stuff can be dangerous to play around with. Use at your own risk.

allen

Discussion Starter · #68 · Dec 31, 2006

Hi everyone

I haven't posted anything here for awhlie because I've been playing around with the glut.

I've been adjusting the doses and found that 1ml to 1 gallon of water at a water change does not seem to hurt the fish,plants or bio filter along with a 1:2 daily dose.This will slowly kill the algae.
For a more severe algae problem I can add 1:1 three days after the 1:1 at water change.
A 1:1 daily dose seems to stress the fish.Plants are fine but it will destroy the bio along with the algae.
A 1.5:1 will kill the fish.
Once the algae is gone I reduced it to 1:5.The plants are growing as fast as they are in the tank with co2.
This is what has happened in my tanks and it might be different for your setup.

I haven't tried a dip for new plants yet but it might be a way to kill the algae and those #%@* snails & eggs before placing them in the tank.
Eric,I should've tried this with that red rubin I got from you.Oh well,the loaches are happy,their bellies are full.

Has anyone else tried this stuff?What kind of effects has it had on your plants?I'm sure others would like to here about it.

As with all chemicals please use with caution and if you do a search it's easy to find the MSDS for glutaraldehyde.

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MatPat

· #69 · Dec 31, 2006

Thanks for the update Allen!

chiahead

· #70 · Jan 2, 2007

What I would really like to know is how to buy some of this stuff.

allen

Discussion Starter · #71 · Jan 2, 2007

I bought mine here Protech Medical Imaging Supplies & Equipment

chiahead

· #72 · Jan 17, 2007

OK I think I messed up on my diluting amounts. I bought the 25% solution bottle, 450ml volume. I added 100ml of glut and 400ml of H2o in my bottle. I am using left over ADA dosing bottles, which should be 1ml per pump...correct? So here is what I dosed after reading Allen's posts(my own fault not mixing my bottles correctly).

20 gallon long-10 pumps=10ml
24 gallon cube-12 pumps=12ml
ADA 90p(46 gallon)-23 pumps=23ml

Can some math experts please figure how much I actually added and what sort of solution I made in these bottles? I need to know if I need to stay up doing emergency water changes? Thanks!

dennis

· #73 · Jan 17, 2007

Chia,

100ml + 400ml is 500ml. 100/500= 0.20 0.2x25%(original concentration)=5% solution of glut.

5% is that same as saying 5ml/100ml H20. Since gluteraldehyde is ~ the same weight (density) as water you can safely assume 5% is the same as 5g/100ml, or 50mg/ml

So, providing I have done the math right (not my strongest field), and assuming that a 20gallon is really 20gallons (75liters). Dosing 10ml of your solution is: 10ml x 50mg= 500mg/75l= 6.67mg/l!

For more on the math see post 46, 47, 52 & 53 of this thread. That's a pretty high dose! I experienced a high die-off of Riccia at half that. The MSDS of gluteraldehyde lists toxic levels as 1mg/l for some inverts, though what those inverts are remains a mystery.

In my experience, the DIY version seems to have some added benefit but its not quite as good as Excel. I read receintly what the concentration of Excel was, though I don't remember now. Maybe 2-2.5%, IIRC. So ml per ml, DIY vs. Excel, your concentration is about double.

Let us know how it goes.

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chiahead

· #74 · Jan 17, 2007

Well I dont know how it will turn out but the fish seem all ok. I guess I will just have to see in the morning.

chiahead

· #75 · Jan 17, 2007

Well, everything seems to be fine. Nothing died from it and all the pants are undamaged. All the nerite snials are ok too. I think I will hold off on dosing for a couple of days just to make sure. When I resume I was thinking 1ml per 5 gallon should not be excessive???

epicfish

· #76 · Jan 17, 2007

allen said:
Hi everyone

I haven't posted anything here for awhlie because I've been playing around with the glut.

I've been adjusting the doses and found that 1ml to 1 gallon of water at a water change does not seem to hurt the fish,plants or bio filter along with a 1:2 daily dose.This will slowly kill the algae.
For a more severe algae problem I can add 1:1 three days after the 1:1 at water change.
A 1:1 daily dose seems to stress the fish.Plants are fine but it will destroy the bio along with the algae.
A 1.5:1 will kill the fish.
Once the algae is gone I reduced it to 1:5.The plants are growing as fast as they are in the tank with co2.
This is what has happened in my tanks and it might be different for your setup.

I haven't tried a dip for new plants yet but it might be a way to kill the algae and those #%@* snails & eggs before placing them in the tank.
Eric,I should've tried this with that red rubin I got from you.Oh well,the loaches are happy,their bellies are full.

Has anyone else tried this stuff?What kind of effects has it had on your plants?I'm sure others would like to here about it.

As with all chemicals please use with caution and if you do a search it's easy to find the MSDS for glutaraldehyde.

Af far as snails go, I'd try a concentrated salt water bath instead of glutaraldehyde. But if you're worried about both algae and snails, then a dip in glutaraldehyde will probably get rid of both if the problem isn't too severe.

Troy McClure

· #77 · Jan 21, 2007

If a glute dip will kill snails/eggs and algae before placing the plants into an aquarium, that alone is reason enough to buy this stuff. What kind of concentration do you think would be effective? 2:1?

allen

Discussion Starter · #78 · Jan 21, 2007

Eric
Since I posted that,most of the snail eggs I'm finding are on the glass.There are some on the red rubin but I don't want to take it out.That plant is like a snail magnet.
If you have a small plant with alot of eggs on it could you bring it to the meeting and I'll setup a 10g to try this.I'll use all new substrate,filter and heater so no snails from anywhere else.

Troy McClure

· #79 · Jan 21, 2007

I'm sure I could find something to test. What kind of ratio do you think will work for a dip?

faiwinnie

· #80 · Feb 26, 2007

is that work as the excel or not ?

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