Going Porcelain

19454 Views 204 Replies 17 Participants Last post by johnwesley0, 22 d ago

johnwesley0

Discussion Starter · Feb 23, 2021

I've been experimenting with a ten gallon Chinese porcelain bowl as a suitable aquarium over the years. I'd had pretty good success using a Fluval cannister set up and a couple of sprigs of anubias barteri The bowl gets about an hour of direct sunlight a day. Things were fine until I started experiencing a series of nitrogen cycle crashes long before I properly understood what cycling actually meant. But, since Jan 4, 21 I've had terrific results using nothing more than a container of old bio media from the old setup and the addition of about 4 lucky bamboo plants (a fifth got water-logged and died.) Just gravel substrate; the curved walls of the bowl direct all fish waste to its center where there is now a thin layer of mulm. The parameters have been stable for nearly six weeks: 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 15-20 ppm nitrates. Not quite sure how to attach a photo, but I like the conservatory look it lends to my Brooklyn flat. The only Con is that the silica in the porcelain tends to attract diatoms.

41 - 60 of 205 Posts

johnwesley0

Discussion Starter · #41 · Apr 27, 2021 (Edited)

I guess it depends on one's perspective. With no mechanical filtration whatsoever, I'm surprised my nitrate level is so low. But, you're right, my ammonia level has been a consistent 0 ppm since January. The only conclusion I can make is that the plants (such as they are) are being outcompeted by something for the available ammonia otherwise there would far less nitrate.
BTW, it looks from your snapshot that you have enough plant growth to explain the low nitrate level of your tank. As Diana has explained in one of her journal articles, plant uptake of ammonia factors into amino acids not nitrate.

jake37

· #42 · Apr 27, 2021

Well as we've noted 5 danio is very very low bio load.... so probably not generating much nitrate.

johnwesley0

Discussion Starter · #43 · Apr 27, 2021

jake37 said:
Well as we've noted 5 danio is very very low bio load.... so probably not generating much nitrate.

I like your tank. Do I detect a water lily in there somewhere?

dwalstad

· #44 · Apr 27, 2021

"When I was searching about this topic I came across a paper that measured beneficial bacteria in the tank (it was really focused on substrate vs filter) and it found that the bulk of the bacteria was in the filter in material like the sponge and the substrate didn't have that much."

I'm guessing that this paper dealt with typical tank containing a gravel or sand substrate. If so, there would be very little bacterial activity of any kind in the substrate. In contrast, a gram of soil contains Zillions of bacteria.

Jake37's tank has nice plant growth, good lighting and floating plants. Could be the reason his nitrates are so low. Frankly, I don't see that much plant growth in the Chinese bowl. Window light may not be enough.

I'm running all of my 8 tanks without filters. Plants, fish, and shrimp are all doing really well. Nitrates are zero.

Goal for NPT tanks is to encourage enough plant growth to remove the ammonia before it's converted to nitrates. Nitrification competes with plants and reduces their growth. Denitrification is not that efficient and it produces nitrites. Folks, let's keep the focus on plant growth, not filters and denitrification.

See less See more

Reactions: 2

Noahlikesfish

· #45 · Apr 28, 2021

What’s your average growth rate in a npt @dwalstad? Mine is in a sunlit window with a reasonably bright led and I dose like 3ppm nitrate of nilocg thrive c

Noahlikesfish

· #46 · Apr 28, 2021

I have a little growth on my crypts and wisteria

johnwesley0

Discussion Starter · #47 · Apr 28, 2021 (Edited)

Noahlikesfish said:
What’s your average growth rate in a npt @dwalstad? Mine is in a sunlit window with a reasonably bright led and I dose like 3ppm nitrate of nilocg thrive c

I think this is an interesting question (the whole issue of nutrient dosing for low tech set-ups) and probably deserves its own thread.

EDIT: Oh, I see you already started one:

www.aquaticplantcentral.com

Ei dosing in a partially dirted tank?

@dwalstad i have a good question for you, do you know if it would be okay to ei dose with a 2/3 dose of nilocg thrivec which gives about 3 ppm nitrate because when I was gone on vacation my tank sitters ei dosed my tank every other day with nilocg and my plants had a explosion in growth, i would...

www.aquaticplantcentral.com

www.aquaticplantcentral.com

jake37

· #48 · Apr 28, 2021

You raise and interesting tangent topic. Plants actually prefer ammonia as a fertilizer and i wonder at what point they can consume the ammonia fast enough that it never gets a chance to break down to nitrate...

dwalstad said:
"When I was searching about this topic I came across a paper that measured beneficial bacteria in the tank (it was really focused on substrate vs filter) and it found that the bulk of the bacteria was in the filter in material like the sponge and the substrate didn't have that much."

I'm guessing that this paper dealt with typical tank containing a gravel or sand substrate. If so, there would be very little bacterial activity of any kind in the substrate. In contrast, a gram of soil contains Zillions of bacteria.

Jake37's tank has nice plant growth, good lighting and floating plants. Could be the reason his nitrates are so low. Frankly, I don't see that much plant growth in the Chinese bowl. Window light may not be enough.

I'm running all of my 8 tanks without filters. Plants, fish, and shrimp are all doing really well. Nitrates are zero.

Goal for NPT tanks is to encourage enough plant growth to remove the ammonia before it's converted to nitrates. Nitrification competes with plants and reduces their growth. Denitrification is not that efficient and it produces nitrites. Folks, let's keep the focus on plant growth, not filters and denitrification.

johnwesley0

Discussion Starter · #49 · Apr 28, 2021

dwalstad said:
Jake37's tank has nice plant growth, good lighting and floating plants. Could be the reason his nitrates are so low. Frankly, I don't see that much plant growth in the Chinese bowl. Window light may not be enough.

I'm running all of my 8 tanks without filters. Plants, fish, and shrimp are all doing really well. Nitrates are zero.

Goal for NPT tanks is to encourage enough plant growth to remove the ammonia before it's converted to nitrates. Nitrification competes with plants and reduces their growth. Denitrification is not that efficient and it produces nitrites. Folks, let's keep the focus on plant growth, not filters and denitrification.

I am a complete convert @dwalstad. Until a few months ago, I thought the sole function of plants was simply to supply oxygen to the aquarium via photosynthesis. EPA disabused me of this and your groundbreaking wiki article Plants and Biological Filtration - The Free Freshwater and Saltwater Aquarium Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit - The Aquarium Wiki, knocked the ball out of the park, as far as I was concerned.

Thank you for your reply. I realize now that trying to speculate where the bacteria in my Chinese bowl may be colonizing is a little like trying to arrive at the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. They are likely everywhere. The goal, so far as bacteria are concerned, is to compete with them for ammonia and ammonium with the addition of plants. The more plants, the longer I can go without water changes. That part resonates like a big brass bell.

See less See more

Reactions: 1

Noahlikesfish

· #50 · Apr 28, 2021

Should I just unplug my filters and pray my fish don’t die? I know my friends keep big fish like gymnotus in like 20-40g Tanks (some gymnotus like javari centipede glass or like caparo are smaller and thinner and less active) with only like peace lily and pothos and no filter. Also my friends have kept fish like stiphodons and swelia species and other gobies/loaches with just a powerhed a couple terrestrial plants and no filter

johnwesley0

Discussion Starter · #51 · Apr 28, 2021

Noahlikesfish said:
Should I just unplug my filters and pray my fish don’t die? I know my friends keep big fish like gymnotus in like 20-40g Tanks (some gymnotus like javari centipede glass or like caparo are smaller and thinner and less active) with only like peace lily and pothos and no filter. Also my friends have kept fish like stiphodons and swelia species and other gobies/loaches with just a powerhed a couple terrestrial plants and no filter

I would say, "Why not?" In Brooklyn where I live, plants are hard to find locally and you have to know of a mom-and-pop store in Chinatown (I'm not joking) before you can come across floating plants, emergent plants or anything more interesting than lucky bamboo. Sadly, most ordinary hobbyists settle for artificial plants and the most expensive mechanical filter they can afford. And, my point is this: They still wind up having to perform frequent water changes or their fish will die. One of my best friends probably cycles through a hundred fish a year and all the while, the water in her 10 gallon tank remains crystal clear! Meanwhile, I'm up to six zebra danio glo-fish and - at the most - a partial water change every two weeks and they are perfectly happy, never come to the surface except to gobble food and the whole thing has been completely off the grid since January.

See less See more

Reactions: 1

Noahlikesfish

· #52 · Apr 28, 2021

Ok

mistergreen

· #53 · Apr 28, 2021

johnwesley0 said:
I would say, "Why not?" In Brooklyn where I live, plants are hard to find locally and you have to know of a mom-and-pop store in Chinatown (I'm not joking) before you can come across floating plants, emergent plants or anything more interesting than lucky bamboo. Sadly, most ordinary hobbyists settle for artificial plants and the most expensive mechanical filter they can afford. And, my point is this: They still wind up having to perform frequent water changes or their fish will die. One of my best friends probably cycles through a hundred fish a year and all the while, the water in her 10 gallon tank remains crystal clear! Meanwhile, I'm up to six zebra danio glo-fish and - at the most - a partial water change every two weeks and they are perfectly happy, never come to the surface except to gobble food and the whole thing has been completely off the grid since January.

I know the Chinatown store you speak of

I used to take the LIRR up to Oyster Bay and see lots of creeks & ponds full of wild aquatics, mostly the American water Lily.

Reactions: 1

Noahlikesfish

· #54 · Apr 28, 2021

i want to make a oyster reef

johnwesley0

Discussion Starter · #55 · Apr 29, 2021

jake37 said:
You raise and interesting tangent topic. Plants actually prefer ammonia as a fertilizer and i wonder at what point they can consume the ammonia fast enough that it never gets a chance to break down to nitrate...

I'm no expert, but I'm going to go out on a tremendous limb and say that it depends on the tank. For example, I am trying to transition from a tank that is already producing nitrates at a not insignificant level (~20ppm). That means, whatever plants I have must compete that much harder for the available ammonia. I have to imagine that a virgin NPT that has never been through a traditional nitrogen cycle has a much simpler task in terms of consuming ammonia. The plants, in effect, have no natural competitors.

Noahlikesfish

· #56 · Apr 29, 2021

Does lower ph inhibit plant growth? I believe that if you used like purigened tannin water (removes color not ph and anti microbial) in a non cycled tank wouldn’t you have explosive growth? Because the ph would be too low to grow algae/bacteria but not plants

johnwesley0

Discussion Starter · #57 · Apr 30, 2021

Noahlikesfish said:
Does lower ph inhibit plant growth? I believe that if you used like purigened tannin water (removes color not ph and anti microbial) in a non cycled tank wouldn’t you have explosive growth? Because the ph would be too low to grow algae/bacteria but not plants

My understanding is that purigen removes preammonia organics. That's the opposite of what you'd want in a walstad tank, if I understand it correctly.

Noahlikesfish

· #58 · Apr 30, 2021

eh you could try other ways to dip the ph like vinegar

johnwesley0

Discussion Starter · #59 · Apr 30, 2021

Noahlikesfish said:
eh you could try other ways to dip the ph like vinegar

Oh, I see. You're basically asking whether crashing your cycle will cause plants to experience a growth spurt. Interesting experiment. You wouldn't want critters in the water when you try it.

Noahlikesfish

· #60 · Apr 30, 2021

How do I uncycle my tank @dwalstad will the sunlight kill it? I want to have a lot of plants in my tank with no competition

41 - 60 of 205 Posts