Aquatic Plant Forum banner
21 - 40 of 41 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Long ago I noticed that when using high doses of potassium (about 30 ppm or more per week) with a total hardness of GH 4-5, many long-stemmed plants show signs of radiculitis of new shoots. At first I thought it was calcium or boron, but later I read articles about impaired absorption of calcium with increased doses of potassium. The best known antagonism occurs between potassium and sodium, and therefore higher doses of potassium are used for hard water (this is not always the case, hard water may not contain much sodium), but the calcium-potassium ratio has also been found to be present. As the author of the article argued, the concentration of potassium must necessarily be less than the concentration of calcium. Yes, you are absolutely correct that it is impossible to maintain precise concentrations in a dynamically changing system, but this works in the long run. I confirm this from my own experience. With a decrease in the weekly dose of potassium to 8-15 ppm, the signs of sciatica completely disappeared.

As for Seachem Equilibrium - is osmosis with a remineralizer used in non-technological tanks? I can understand if the poor quality of the water (like mine) does not allow the use of the water supply. I think low-tech tanks are made with tap water.

I hope I understood your question correctly, if not, please describe in more detail.
Good response. I wish I could give it two likes. Yes, Sodium is an infamous villain. I didn't know it conspires with Potassium to inhibit uptake. I keep my Potassium under 20 ppm. I have seen a chart detailing all the conflicts between micro nutrients. It's too deep in the weeds for me. But there might be one or two important interferences on that chart. As far as the Seachem Equilibrium goes, somebody posted that they use it in their low-tech tank then add a little extra Calcium and Magnesium. That makes sense to me because with low-tech you don't have to keep adding stuff.

Rolling your own micro nutrients is technically challenging and hard to verify. It's not for the average hobbiest or the faint of heart. It's interesting that you tested for Cu. Do you test for Boron and other micros? Do you have confidence in your tests and lab work? They say you don't have to add trace elements because they come from fish food. I supplement trace elements just to be sure. You might try adding them yourself since your using RO water. It couldn't hurt. I also suspect it might have something to do with the PO4 since everything else is in order.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Good response. I wish I could give it two likes. Yes, Sodium is an infamous villain. I didn't know it conspires with Potassium to inhibit uptake. I keep my Potassium under 20 ppm. I have seen a chart detailing all the conflicts between micro nutrients. It's too deep in the weeds for me. But there might be one or two important interferences on that chart. As far as the Seachem Equilibrium goes, somebody posted that they use it in their low-tech tank then add a little extra Calcium and Magnesium. That makes sense to me because with low-tech you don't have to keep adding stuff.

Rolling your own micro nutrients is technically challenging and hard to verify. It's not for the average hobbiest or the faint of heart. It's interesting that you tested for Cu. Do you test for Boron and other micros? Do you have confidence in your tests and lab work? They say you don't have to add trace elements because they come from fish food. I supplement trace elements just to be sure. You might try adding them yourself since your using RO water. It couldn't hurt. I also suspect it might have something to do with the PO4 since everything else is in order.
I can only test Iron and Copper with normal aquarium tests. I do not test the rest of the trace elements. Yes, you're right - the tests give a very vague result. For example, an iron test gives only an approximate indicator of dissolved Fe 3+. If you dive deeper into chemistry, then Fe 3+ is not at all dissolved in water, it is rather a fine suspension of iron than a solution. In the solution, iron is present in the form of Fe 2+ and is not detected by my tests. I make a micro with 50% DTPA and 50% gluconate iron. This means that the test will see DTPA, but not gluconate. Only after the decay of gluconate and the transition of Fe 2+ to Fe 3+ will the test be able to catch it. The remaining trace elements are calculated from the amount of iron, in other words, in relation to iron. I conducted comparative tests of the performance of branded fertilizers (Dennerle, Tropica, Aquayer) and homemade ones. I didn't see any difference. There is a difference - the price). Making homemade solutions isn't as difficult as it sounds. I mainly focus on the composition of Tropica, but also tried the composition of ADA mineral. If we compare the availability of ready-made dry mixes in the USA, Europe with Russia, then I would say you are missing the chance to save money and get fertilizer no worse than branded ones. There are simply no ready-made mixtures in Russia. For example, I ordered large bags (at least 1 kg) of each element at a chemical store. The only good news is that this amount is enough for me for my whole life)))).
By the way, regarding boron, there is evidence that boron is not filtered by RO filters and partially passes through the membrane. So this is also an interesting point in using reverse osmosis. And I cannot verify this. But the TDS of my osmosis at the output is about 15ppm with new membranes, and the GH, KH tests clearly show 0. Could this be the presence of boric acid, bromine or something else? It is difficult to say, but such a possibility exists.
Regarding the dosage of trace elements. Yes, in my case it is necessary. Strong light, a lot of CO2, without micro, plants will simply die. This is not a theory, I conducted such experiments, chlorosis of young leaves appears already on the 4th-5th day. Feeding fish cannot provide that many micronutrients (and macro) in a balanced proportion. Again, it depends on the amount of fish, but with a large population and abundant nutrition, we will rather get a large release of highly abundant organic matter than food for plants, and this will cause the growth of algae and not plants.
As for PO4. This remains a question for me. At this point I have significantly increased the amount of phosphate and am awaiting the results. We will see.
More and more I'm starting to think that the reason for all the troubles lies in the materials used in the construction of the scape. The fact is that I love to travel by bike and look for beautiful materials such as stones, wood, sand. Last summer I managed to find some very interesting stones, and I used them to build this tank. Maybe these stones release something into the water? I think we should try to remove them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
73780

Here is Mulder's Chart of Nutrient Interactions that I have seen frequently posted. It wasn't hard to find. It looks like Phosphorus not synergizing with other nutrients isn't the problem. Just thought I would check that.

So, now I'm recalling what you said earlier about toxicity. Several years ago there was a big debate about the toxicity of micro nutrient compounds. It was a heated debate that got some people banned from their forums. Which side of the debate are you on? Do you think it could be toxicity? Personally, I trust the compounds they sell. However, I would question that faith if I had an issue. You might be right to worry about those rocks you found too. I once had a confirmed problem finding a rock.

I imagine micro nutrient dosing solution being hard to make because of the small amounts of some of the compounds you have to mix. I mix macro dosing solution and I weigh out my CaSO4 and MgSO4 for remineralizing RO water. That's about the extent of my effort. It's interesting how you test for Iron as a proxy for the other nutrients when you use your micro mix.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter · #24 · (Edited)
View attachment 73780
Here is Mulder's Chart of Nutrient Interactions that I have seen frequently posted. It wasn't hard to find. It looks like Phosphorus not synergizing with other nutrients isn't the problem. Just thought I would check that.

So, now I'm recalling what you said earlier about toxicity. Several years ago there was a big debate about the toxicity of micro nutrient compounds. It was a heated debate that got some people banned from their forums. Which side of the debate are you on? Do you think it could be toxicity? Personally, I trust the compounds they sell. However, I would question that faith if I had an issue. You might be right to worry about those rocks you found too. I once had a confirmed problem finding a rock.

I imagine micro nutrient dosing solution being hard to make because of the small amounts of some of the compounds you have to mix. I mix macro dosing solution and I weigh out my CaSO4 and MgSO4 for remineralizing RO water. That's about the extent of my effort. It's interesting how you test for Iron as a proxy for the other nutrients when you use your micro mix.
I am having problems understanding the text because of the translation. I think I do not quite understand your questions exactly. Especially this question - "It's interesting how you test for Iron as a proxy for the other nutrients when you use your micro mix." If you have the opportunity to write it differently, then perhaps I will understand it correctly and be able to give an answer.

I am familiar with Mulder's schematic and it gives an understanding of the complexity of how the elements interact. In addition to the circuit, this process is greatly influenced by the PH of the environment. The end result can be drastically different, regardless of the scheme.

Yes, I've heard about micro toxicity and dosage reduction, especially when using nutrient soils such as ADA soils. I have not found any convincing evidence of this. I think plants are the main indicator and you need to be guided by their condition.

As for the preparation of micro and small concentrations of a number of elements, this can be solved quite simply. For example, we need to weigh a substance with an accuracy of 0.1g. We weigh the substance 10 times more than necessary, that is, 1 g. Then dissolve in 100ml. water. We take 10 ml. the resulting solution. Done, 10 ml of solution will contain the amount of substance we need. In this way, very small doses can be weighed.

What do you use as calcium sulfate? Is it stucco or something else? Are you adding carbs to raise your KH?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
I am having problems understanding the text because of the translation. I think I do not quite understand your questions exactly. Especially this question - "It's interesting how you test for Iron as a proxy for the other nutrients when you use your micro mix." If you have the opportunity to write it differently, then perhaps I will understand it correctly and be able to give an answer.
It is interesting how you test for Iron to index the amount of other micro nutrients you are dosing.

It is interesting how you test for Iron to gauge how much of the other micro nutrients you are dosing.
I am familiar with Mulder's schematic and it gives an understanding of the complexity of how the elements interact. In addition to the circuit, this process is greatly influenced by the PH of the environment. The end result can be drastically different, regardless of the scheme.
Yes, some people keep their pH and GH really low. I have experimented with fulvic acid to lower my pH. My concern about pH is in keeping Ammonia in its less toxic Ammonium form. I keep my GH at 107 mg/l CaCO3 which is not very low.

I'm glad you don't think your micro nutrients are causing toxicity. Taking out the rocks might help.
As for the preparation of micro and small concentrations of a number of elements, this can be solved quite simply. For example, we need to weigh a substance with an accuracy of 0.1g. We weigh the substance 10 times more than necessary, that is, 1 g. Then dissolve in 100ml. water. We take 10 ml. the resulting solution. Done, 10 ml of solution will contain the amount of substance we need. In this way, very small doses can be weighed.
Yes, I know. I sometimes use dilutions. This is advanced. You should be proud of yourself for mixing your own micros. I have read many threads about this. It is inexpensive like you say and very resourceful of you to make your own solution.

I use Calcium Sulfate and Magnesium Sulfate from Green Leaf Aquariums to prepare my RO water. I add one or two 1/8th teaspoons of KHCO3 per five gallons of water for KH.

Your translator is working well. I didn't know you were using a translator.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter · #26 ·
It is interesting how you test for Iron to index the amount of other micro nutrients you are dosing.

It is interesting how you test for Iron to gauge how much of the other micro nutrients you are dosing.
I am starting from a recipe for example Tropica Premium. And I use a calculator to calculate.
73792


The composition in percent is indicated on the fertilizer package. Or is there such a document.
73793
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter · #27 ·
I keep my GH at 107 mg/l CaCO3 which is not very low.
I use Calcium Sulfate and Magnesium Sulfate from Green Leaf Aquariums to prepare my RO water. I add one or two 1/8th teaspoons of KHCO3 per five gallons of water for KH.
One point in your dosage is not entirely clear to me. You add 107 ppm CaCO3, which gives GH = 6 and KH = 6. In addition, you add CaSO4 and MgSO4, which raises the GH even higher. And you also add KHCO3, which raises KH even higher. Or did I misunderstand you?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter · #28 ·
I'm glad you don't think your micro nutrients are causing toxicity. Taking out the rocks might help.
Yes, if something is supposed to cause toxicity, then it shouldn't be micro fertilization. It's a shame to get rid of the stones.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Yes, I know. I sometimes use dilutions. This is advanced. You should be proud of yourself for mixing your own micros. I have read many threads about this. It is inexpensive like you say and very resourceful of you to make your own solution.
Thanks. But the problems remain and I cannot find a solution. It's very overwhelming.
Your translator is working well. I didn't know you were using a translator.
Yes, unfortunately I do not speak English at a good level. But modern technology helps a lot)).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
One point in your dosage is not entirely clear to me. You add 107 ppm CaCO3, which gives GH = 6 and KH = 6. In addition, you add CaSO4 and MgSO4, which raises the GH even higher. And you also add KHCO3, which raises KH even higher. Or did I misunderstand you?
107 mg/l CaCO3 is how I express GH in the metric system. Otherwise it's 6 dGH. I do not use CaCO3 to prepare RO water. Interestingly you express KH the same way. 17.86 mg/l CaCO3 equals 1 dKH. This is according to LaMotte's test instructions for GH and KH.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
I am starting from a recipe for example Tropica Premium. And I use a calculator to calculate. View attachment 73792

The composition in percent is indicated on the fertilizer package. Or is there such a document.
View attachment 73793
Well done. Very resourceful. Some people would not have thought of this. Let alone making the calculations and actually mixing it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,309 Posts
Hello. Please help me understand the problem.
The aquarium is a little less than a year old, homemade fertilizers, light Chihiros vivid 2, 9 hours a day with sunrise and sunset, ADA Amazonia 2 soil, osmosis water with remineralizer Ca / Mg = 3.2 / 1.

Water parameters - PH-6.4-6.8; KH-3; GH-4.5-5, PO4-0 ppm; NH3-NH4-NO2-0 ppm; NO3-5-10 ppm.

There are problems with blyxa japonica, utricularia graminifolia, staurogyne repens, pogostemon helferi, cyperus helferi and other species. These plants simply do not want to grow, they shrink, the lower leaves are destroyed and covered with BBA, GSA. I see brown roots in cyperus helferi. Problems began after the launch on ADA Amazonia 2, before that there was JBL Manado soil, there were no such problems with it.

I am adding the following number of items per week with a 2hr aquarist apt complete recipe:
NO3 - 7-10 ppm (KNO3 + Urea)
PO4 - 2.45 ppm (KH2PO4)
K - 12 ppm (KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4)
Fe - 0.2 ppm (DTPA + Gluconate)
The micro elements are formulated according to the Tropica recipe.

My brain went through all the possible options for the causes of problems, but I cannot figure out what they don't like ...

View attachment 73750
Hi @Serje85

Here is an enlargement of a portion of the picture above.

Can you tell if if arrow #1 is pointing to a newer or older leaf on your java fern?

Can you provide me a better picture of the plants in the area of arrow #2 please?

Thank you, -Roy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter · #34 · (Edited)
How do you preserve your micro dosing dosing solution? I use Potassium Sorbate but it's not working.

400 mg/liter C6H7KO2
1 g/liter C6H8O6
I add 1 drop of methylene blue to 200 ml of fertilizer. The photo shows an example of fertilization with potassium. I began to practice this not long ago, for about a month. My main rule of thumb when creating fertilizers is sterility. I make sure to treat the containers with bleach before mixing. Then I dechlorinate with sodium thiosulfate. I use only boiled osmosis water. And most importantly, I do not do large amounts of fertilizers, always 200 ml. At the moment, I am not experiencing storage and fungus problems.

Hand Liquid Drinkware Water bottle Bottle

here is a photo of trace elements. When methylene blue is added, the solution turns green.

Drinkware Liquid Stemware Solution Water
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter · #35 ·
107 mg/l CaCO3 is how I express GH in the metric system. Otherwise it's 6 dGH. I do not use CaCO3 to prepare RO water. Interestingly you express KH the same way. 17.86 mg/l CaCO3 equals 1 dKH. This is according to LaMotte's test instructions for GH and KH.
I understood. It's just that when CaCO3 is added, both GH and KH will rise.

Rectangle Operating system Font Screenshot Parallel
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter · #36 ·
How do you preserve your micro dosing dosing solution? I use Potassium Sorbate but it's not working.

400 mg/liter C6H7KO2
1 g/liter C6H8O6
There is evidence of the negative effects of ascorbic acid on plants in the long term. I use EDTA to chelate trace minerals other than iron. Iron - 50/50 DTPA / Gluconate
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter · #37 ·
Hi @Serje85

Here is an enlargement of a portion of the picture above.

Can you tell if if arrow #1 is pointing to a newer or older leaf on your java fern?

Can you provide me a better picture of the plants in the area of arrow #2 please?

Thank you, -Roy
Hello Roy. The Javanese fern leaf is quite old, about 3-4 months old. Here is a photo of area # 2 and a fern, also for an example microsorum pteropus trident
Plant Terrestrial plant Groundcover Grass Flowering plant Plant Water Leaf Botany Terrestrial plant Plant Flower Terrestrial plant Leaf vegetable Flowering plant Water Plant Liquid Nature Leaf Plant Terrestrial plant Ingredient Grass Tree
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter · #38 ·
My 2 week phosphate boost test is showing disgusting results. The number of different types of algae has increased significantly. Spots began to appear on the leaves, tissue destruction ... No improvement in growth was observed.
I went through all the ADA test instructions yesterday. And it was interesting. ADA recommends maximum values for NO3 = 2ppm and below. At 5-10, a water change and search for problems are already recommended. For PO4, a value of 0.05ppm is indicated, if it is 0.1-0.5ppm this already indicates an abundance of phosphate. The ADA approach to water parameters never ceases to amaze me. I know there are different systems like EI. And the difference between the approaches of all other systems and the ADA system is huge. I am very interested in understanding the ADA system, I like their rational approach, they are trying to recreate the water parameters of natural reservoirs and they are great at it. But not me .....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
My 2 week phosphate boost test is showing disgusting results. The number of different types of algae has increased significantly. Spots began to appear on the leaves, tissue destruction ... No improvement in growth was observed.
I went through all the ADA test instructions yesterday. And it was interesting. ADA recommends maximum values for NO3 = 2ppm and below. At 5-10, a water change and search for problems are already recommended. For PO4, a value of 0.05ppm is indicated, if it is 0.1-0.5ppm this already indicates an abundance of phosphate. The ADA approach to water parameters never ceases to amaze me. I know there are different systems like EI. And the difference between the approaches of all other systems and the ADA system is huge. I am very interested in understanding the ADA system, I like their rational approach, they are trying to recreate the water parameters of natural reservoirs and they are great at it. But not me .....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
i see a some issues with your fertiliziation:
  1. Your macros look fine except you might be missing one nutrient. I don't see any chloride listed. Of the 14 nutrients plants need to grow is chlorine. Not the toxic gas but in the safe form of a chloride salt .
  2. It is not clear to me how you are remineralizing your RO water. if you are purchasing a GH booster look at the ingredients list. If you wee calcium chloride or magnesium chloride you have chloride salt in the water. However if you see calcium sulfate or magnesium sulfate you do not need to fertilizer your tank with potassium sulfate. However you need to add a chloride salt to your fertilizer routine. The ingredients you can use are calcium /magneisum chloride, potassium chloride, or sodium chloride. Fish do best with some sodium in the water so I prefer to use that. 0.5ppm of Cl should work.
  3. I don't see any micro nutrients listed other than iron. You don't need iron gluconate. Fe DTPA will work by itself at your PH levels. You are probably expecting the soil in your tank to take care of your micro needs. there is not guaranty that it will. However if you correctly does the micros Manganese, boron, zinc, copper, molybdenum, and nickel youplants should do well You should dose Fe to 0.1ppm, Mn to 0.05ppm, B to 0.018ppm, Zn 0.02ppm, Ni and Mo 0.005ppm.
You can make a macro with Fe DTPA, manganese sulfate, boric acid, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate nickel sulfate, and sodium molybdate. however note sodium molybdate cannot be mixed with the other micros.It will react with them and become inert. Instead mix it in with your macros. it won't react with a NPK solution. I make my own GH booster with calcium chloride, magnesium sulfate, An NPK solution with molybdenum, And a macro solution. And use it in my RO water tank with an inert substrate.

Also note RO systems are less effective at removing boron from tap water in my case I have about 0.002ppm boron in my RO water.ThereforeI have reduced the borondose in the recipe to from the target 0.02ppm to 0.0018ppm. KH should also be kept as low as possible. KH will reduce the effectiveness of the micro recipe. To keep my PH stable I put a sea shell in the filter. it will neutralize any acids and Keep the PH close to 7. I dose once a week during the 50% water change NO3 target is 10ppm and POR is 1ppm.with MY GH booster and micro recipe above. This recipe has not harmed my shrimp.

I found most of the micro and macros I needed at loud wolf.com and then used amazon.com for Fe DTPA, and sodium molybdate. I used Rotalabutterfly.com a nutrient calculator and a milligram scale to make a solution. For the micro solution use RO water with a PH of 6 or less. I mix distilled vinegar with the RO water to reach the desires PH. The low PH is needed to insure the iron doesn't degrade. Fe DTPA oxidizes at a PH of 8 or higher.
 
21 - 40 of 41 Posts
Top