Aquatic Plant Forum banner
1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi,

My tank is over a month old and I'm experiencing several issues.

Bacopa looks yellowish to me, especially new leaves:



Could that be the iron deficiency?

Next is Anubias barteri. The plant has lush leaves and it's very big and healthy, however, new shots have transparent bits:



And last one is Vallisneria.



It grows, but the leaves usually prematurely die having either brownish tips or just detach/die at the base.

My tank is 65 gallons, 2w/g lighting and diy CO2. I'm also using PPS method for plants with nutritive substrate layer. Any useful suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I'm dosing via PPS pro method. I should have mentioned that I started adding the liquid fertilizers 7 days ago.

The micros mixture has 700ppm Fe, 170ppm Mn, B 115ppm, Zn 100ppm, cu 13ppm, Mo 5ppm in 1 liter bottle. I dose 1ml per 10 liter.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,406 Posts
When did the symptoms first show up? I assume before you started dosing?

If that is the case you should be all set now. Just need to wait for the plants to grow new leaves. The old leaves will not recover, but new leaves should be nice and green.

Try post another picture of the plants in a week and we can compare the differences.

What are you dosing for sulfur? Sulfur deficiency can also cause yellowing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Zapins, thanks for helping me. Unfortunately it's worse than I thought. Upon close inspection I discovered that plants are severely missing some nutrient(s).

Here's Bacopa, extreme closeup. Image on the left is a healthy mature leaf. The other two images are pale new shots.



Here's Anubias barteri, new leaf:



The same can be said for Vallisneria.

I've noticed bad growth about 5-6 days before I started fertilizing. However, even fast growing plants (Bacopa) aren't showing any signs of relief. Actually I think they look even worse now. Maybe it needs time or something more drastic? I didn't dose sulfur, just NPK and those micros... ?

I'm not that experienced... but this looks like iron and nitrogen deficiency for my untrained eye... It's severe. What do you think?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,406 Posts
Very nice photos. Most people post blurry pictures taken with a 2 mp phone or webcam.

Its not nitrogen deficiency because the new leaves are not smaller than old leaves, also the distribution of the paleness is not correct for that. Nitrogen deficiency is usually more evenly spread over the leaves and does not affect new and old growth evenly it shows pale older growth and normal looking green shoots until it becomes severe then new shoots start getting pale/white looking as they steadily grow smaller and smaller leaves.

It might be sulfur deficiency, the bacopa and val's appearance match it pretty well. A general overall yellowing of the leaves nice and uniform = sulfur deficiency.

This pic shows normal leaf shape.


I think the plants need more time to start recovering. The new growth should start to get more healthy within a week. The bacopa and vals look iron deficient. The anubias pattern of necrosis looks a little strange, not very iron like, but taken in context with the other plants I'd still say its iron.

What substrate are you using? Also, does your house use a salt-softening system?

What brand is the micro fertilizer or are you mixing your own? How are you dosing the macros? Individual salts or a commercial brand? List the chemicals in the ferts.

If there is no sulfate/sulfur containing chemicals in any of the ferts you are dosing then you might have found your problem especially if in a week your plants are not getting better.

The anubias' pattern of yellowing/necrosis is not consistent with iron or nitrogen from what I've seen. It might just be that the plant you have is reacting a bit strangely or this might be showing that the issue is not iron. I've never seen sulfur deficiency in anubias before so it might be that.

Anyway, here is a decent list of deficiencies and some general pics of what they look like. Keep in mind this site shows deficiencies for non-aquatic plants, probably food or garden plants which might not react exactly like aquatic plants. Each species is somewhat unique.
http://www.urbansunshine.com/content/index.php?page=plant-food-facts

Here is a diagram I made a few years ago


Here is APC's current gallery of deficiencies. With any luck I'll be renovating this part of the site to be more accessible and more complete. If you'd like to give me permission to save your pictures into the database you could help contribute to our aquatic database of deficiencies for future people? It would also be helpful if you could post follow up pictures when the plants start recovering in a week or so. If you want to give the plants another 5-7 days to start showing if they are recovering with the current fertilizer doses, then try adding sulfur and see if that improves then we could conclusively nail it down to one or the other.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquarium-pictures/browseimages.php?c=12&userid=&t=

*edit*
I just had another look at the original anubias picture, it looks like it is being grown emersed outside of water? Can you post a pic of the entire plant?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Very nice photos. Most people post blurry pictures taken with a 2 mp phone or webcam.
I know what you mean! :rolleyes: Thanks! Oh yeah, I'm a pro family photographer and I do that for a living. :D I thought these images were just snaps that I took while I was inspecting plants. I'm glad they are fine and usable. By all means, feel free to use them.

Its not nitrogen deficiency because the new leaves are not smaller than old leaves, also the distribution of the paleness is not correct for that. Nitrogen deficiency is usually more evenly spread over the leaves and does not affect new and old growth evenly it shows pale older growth and normal looking green shoots until it becomes severe then new shoots start getting pale/white looking as they steadily grow smaller and smaller leaves.
True, but I also had Ludwigia glandulosa and it just fell apart. First, the oldest leaves massively started to get yellow and die. The plant struggled to produce new shots, they were tiny and reddish, but they too went yellow and died. I was left with bare stems and several shots. I discarded everything. In that time, every other plants looked totally healthy and I was sure it was Ludwigia that had problems.
Now it looks like Nitrogen was deficient...?!

It might be sulfur deficiency, the bacopa and val's appearance match it pretty well. A general overall yellowing of the leaves nice and uniform = sulfur deficiency.
Yes, but I have pretty hard water... from what I've read, sulfur deficiency isn't common in hard water.
And it's quite rare, isn't it?

I think the plants need more time to start recovering. The new growth should start to get more healthy within a week. The bacopa and vals look iron deficient. The anubias pattern of necrosis looks a little strange, not very iron like, but taken in context with the other plants I'd still say its iron.
I completely agree with you, Anubias doesn't look like iron-only.

What substrate are you using? Also, does your house use a salt-softening system?

What brand is the micro fertilizer or are you mixing your own? How are you dosing the macros? Individual salts or a commercial brand? List the chemicals in the ferts. If there is no sulfate/sulfur containing chemicals in any of the ferts you are dosing then you might have found your problem especially if in a week your plants are not getting better.
Substrate is JBL florapol, it contains iron (duh!) and clay, no salt-softening system (only for a dish washer ;) ). I mixed my own fertilizers.

In 1 liter there's K 1400ppm, Mg 1600ppm, NO3 10000 ppm, PO4 1000ppm. I add 1ml to 10l of water every day, 20ml in total. Micros have the same dilution, Fe 700ppm, Zn 100ppm, Mn 170ppm, Cu 13ppm, B 115ppm, Mo 5ppm.

The anubias' pattern of yellowing/necrosis is not consistent with iron or nitrogen from what I've seen. It might just be that the plant you have is reacting a bit strangely or this might be showing that the issue is not iron. I've never seen sulfur deficiency in anubias before so it might be that.

Anyway, here is a decent list of deficiencies and some general pics of what they look like. Keep in mind this site shows deficiencies for non-aquatic plants, probably food or garden plants which might not react exactly like aquatic plants. Each species is somewhat unique.
http://www.urbansunshine.com/content/index.php?page=plant-food-facts

Here is APC's current gallery of deficiencies. With any luck I'll be renovating this part of the site to be more accessible and more complete. If you'd like to give me permission to save your pictures into the database you could help contribute to our aquatic database of deficiencies for future people? It would also be helpful if you could post follow up pictures when the plants start recovering in a week or so. If you want to give the plants another 5-7 days to start showing if they are recovering with the current fertilizer doses, then try adding sulfur and see if that improves then we could conclusively nail it down to one or the other.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquarium-pictures/browseimages.php?c=12&userid=&t=

*edit*
I just had another look at the original anubias picture, it looks like it is being grown emersed outside of water? Can you post a pic of the entire plant?
Thank you very much for those links, taking your time to write and help! Urbansunshine deficiency drawings look very good! I will post the follow up images here, once my plants recover... hopefully soon enough. I don't grow Anubias emersed, I pulled it out for close inspection. However, it did grow emersed before I bought it! Can that be the reason for sick/strange new leaves, going from emersed to submersed?! I don't currently have the pic of the whole plant... It looks very big and healthy... except the 3 new leaves.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Just to say that Bacopa's new leaves seem a bit greener than before. However, I should note that those old thick, pure green leaves of bacopa were formed while the plant was growing emersed.
The plant is probably adjusting to submersed environment and that may be the cause for the loss of green with more paler ones? Hm?

I guess I'll have to wait for A. barteri to grow new leaves, to see if those deficiencies have cleared.

The plants that give me the most trouble so far are E. parvula and Vallis tortifolia.

V. tortifolia is growing, but the leaves fade and turn red/brown prematurely. I lost a whole bunch of leaves in last 2 weeks. However, the plant keeps growing new ones... but it doesn't look bushy.

E. parvula, on the other hand, is just stagnating. It's neither growing (only a bit...) nor dying. I cut all taller blades to force new growth.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,406 Posts
Hmm I think we'll have our answer when a new anubias leaf grows in. Good to hear the bacopa looks a little better.

Emersed growth often dies off or becomes ratty looking when submersed so that might not be helping the diagnosis in general. Though there is definitely a nutrient deficiency since many plants are showing similar signs.

I eagerly await the new leaf and pictures :)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,696 Posts
I'm wondering if it's not actually a toxicity of some sort. I've seen some vaguely similar patterns in fertilizer-burnt terrestrial plants, though due to the air exposure the overdosed leaves quickly dessicate instead of turning clear like that Anubias.

FWIW Anubias almost never drop leaves when transitioning from emersed to submersed growth. I highly doubt that's a contributor in that plant's case, at least.

As to what toxicity it might be (assuming that's even the case), I can't really speculate—almost every time I've seen a fertilizer burn it was a comprehensive fertilizer that caused it, so no clue which element actually did the plant in...
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,406 Posts
A good point. Might indeed be a toxicity. You do mix your own fertilizers so a simple calculation error might be the cause of it. Or maybe the wrong salt being used might cause issues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Sometimes I wonder the same... however, the symptoms started before I added any fertilizer. I was following Tropica's 1-90 days advices... I no longer follow it because I don't agree with everything they said there and think that maybe it caused some issues in the first place.

They strongly advised NOT to use any fertilizer in the first like 3 weeks and only a 1/2 dose for several more weeks with water changes every 3-4 days. Some of my plants adjusted to the new environment very quickly and began growing like usual. With just a couple of snails and amano shrimps (not enough food / waste), frequent WCs and no fertilizer, maybe they took all nutrients and left other plants starving? That's how I think it started, I might be wrong though.

Anyway I no longer add DIY micros. I bought EasyLife's Profito and Ferro (Fe) supplement and I dose using this calculator

Thanks!
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,406 Posts
You know. I was doing a bit of reading about micro deficiencies and I found something that seems to fit with this issue very closely.

Since you are mixing your own fertilizers it might be possible that you have a Molybdenum deficiency. I bolded the relevant parts below.

"Symptoms develop quickly in 2-4 days in successive leaves. Oldest leaves are sometimes less affected than adjacent leaves, but symptoms are designated primary symptoms. Plants given 0.00005 ppm Mo are initially green and show little or no mottling. Such plants, or those that have made temporary recovery, later show distinct secondary symptoms of whiptail, which appear about 7-10 weeks after seeds are sown. They involve young leaves are rarely develop in plants showing severe primary symptoms. Small yellow-green or ivory chlorotic translucent areas develop near the base of a young leaf when about 6 to 15 cm. long. There are usually three to six such areas in a single vertical row between major veins close to one or both sides of the midrib. These areas rapidly become necrotic and perforate. As the leaf expands they produce irregular stellate holes. This stage is usually confined to one or two leaves. In subsequent leaves the breakdown occurs increasingly in marginal regions. This causes cessation of lamina growth but not of leaf elongation. These leaves are often twisted and elongate with varying amounts of narrow, irregular lamina, except for a limited area of entire but often distorted lamina at the apex. The lamina is often corrugated, irregularly cupped, relatively thick, turgid, and abnormally dark or blue-green. In young leaves up to 3 cm. long the margins may show water-soaking and brown necrosis when the lamina is only a few millimeters wide. If these leaves elongate they are almost or totally devoid of lamina. Such leaves may fail to elongate, but they exude a clear brown fluir, become gelatinous, and finally die in 24 hours, leaving a dried brown pyramid of dead tissue surrounding the terminal bud. Death of the growing point usually occurs at this stage, but leaf primordia may develop into rounded stumps. The growing point of the leaf may die, and these leaves cease to elongate becoming stunted and brown at the apex, with distortion of the lamina behind. The old leaves of these plants remain normal except that many are thick, turgid, and dark green. Plants showing moderate primary symptoms may develop secondary symptoms directly at the margins of young leaves. Death of rudimentary leaves and of the growing point may follow rapidly. The extent, timing, and relative predominance of the various stages described vary and result in a variety of final forms that comprise the general condition called "whiptail." At 0.0005 ppm Mo, the flower curds are irregular with leafy bracts dividing the curd into several areas. Pedicels wilt after elongation, and flowers die without setting see, or seeds remain green or pale brown an shrivel before maturing."

Pg 163

Article:SYMPTOMS OF MOLYBDENUM DEFICIENCY IN PLANTS
Author:HEWITT, E. J.
Journal:Soil science
ISSN:0038-075X
Date:03/01/1956
Volume:81
Issue:3
Page:159 - 172
DOI:10.1097/00010694-195603000-00002
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
Thanks Zapins, I'm already adding micros with Mo, but I guess I finally found the real cause.

I finally obtained reliable tests today and I was shocked (or not!) to see that both NO3 and PO4 are ZERO, even with PPS dosing. I think what we have here is the "case closed" for all of my plant troubles...

So today I bought Easy Life's Nitro & Fosfo to manually add the required doses to reach 10mg/l of NO3 and 1mg/l of PO4 and will give up PPS dosing. I guess I will monitor N-P values for several days and see how fast the plants use them. My goal is to reach the target with weekly N-P doses + adding mild micros and K every day.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Of course.

See for yourself! This is just 24h after I added both nitrates and phosphates!
Looks like there was a severe NO3 and PO4 deficiency that lasted for weeks!



The whole tank looks more green now, especially noticeable on fast growing plants.

I also had several Vallis that rotted under the gravel and were constantly producing bad, yellow leaves that soon died. When I pulled decayed rhizomes out of the water there was a bad smell. Other Vallis look healthy and have good white roots so I hope they will soon fully recover and begin to flourish.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,406 Posts
Hmm. The plant symptoms don't look like characteristic N and P deficiency. The symptoms don't match N at all, and don't follow the same pattern of necrosis that P deficiency takes, though maybe a little bit.

Here is what I think happened:

Plants grow as fast as the limiting nutrient, so if Mo was completely lacking you'd get Mo deficiency signs (which is what the anubias is showing in the first photo). It wouldn't matter if N and P were limited or abundant because Mo was the one that it ran out of. Once Mo was added the plant starts to grow as fast as the next limiting nutrient, in this case N and P. Leading to the quickly recovering plant you see now.

And here is my thinking and supporting evidence:

Classic P deficiency:
Notice the holes in the leaves and damage spreading outwards, also very important - notice that the damage is on older leaves only, P is a highly mobile nutrient that can be removed from old tissue which causes damage.


Compared with your anubias:
Note the clear appearance of leaves and irregular pattern of death which differs from the clearly defined leaf tissue death and radiating damage. Also very important is damage occurs on new leaves only, and Mo is a sparingly mobile nutrient so it cannot easily be moved from old leaves to new, leading to new leaf damage and sometimes a slight darkening of old leaves)


The important thing is now you have plants that grow healthy again!

I am curious to see how the anubias recovers over time. Would love to see pics of new leaves when they come up!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
Hmmm, it does make sense, thanks. I think it was a combination of many deficiencies but N-P was probably the most drastic.

You see, I still don't have many fish, not enough of waste or food. There's no way I had more N-P back then. And even with PPS pro method, I didn't supply enough of N-P to be noticed by the tests.

So... plants probably used all of PPS-dosages with zero N-P being freely available in the water. But that wasn't enough.

Besides Mo, I also think I had an iron deficiency, but N-P was probably the other limiting factor. I lost all of my Ludwigia glandulosa that way - all of older leaves yellowed and died from the tip to the stem. Eventually, the whole plants have died. But it was the first and only plant in that time to show any deficiency. It was just the beginning, and I thought I had problems with Ludwigia only.

I will wait and monitor the values to see how will the plants adjust. Let's hope for the best. :)
One of my Anubias barteri is growing a new leaf... can't wait to see it!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Unfortunately, new A. barteri and A. nana leaves are damaged as well... Less necrotic tissues, but look a bit more deformed. The leaves are still new, will see if they are going to shape up.

I don't honestly understand... Anubias are one of the easiest species to grow yet I'm having big issues with these plants...
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
Top