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7K views 29 replies 3 participants last post by  maboleth 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi,

My tank is over a month old and I'm experiencing several issues.

Bacopa looks yellowish to me, especially new leaves:



Could that be the iron deficiency?

Next is Anubias barteri. The plant has lush leaves and it's very big and healthy, however, new shots have transparent bits:



And last one is Vallisneria.



It grows, but the leaves usually prematurely die having either brownish tips or just detach/die at the base.

My tank is 65 gallons, 2w/g lighting and diy CO2. I'm also using PPS method for plants with nutritive substrate layer. Any useful suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
 
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#4 ·
When did the symptoms first show up? I assume before you started dosing?

If that is the case you should be all set now. Just need to wait for the plants to grow new leaves. The old leaves will not recover, but new leaves should be nice and green.

Try post another picture of the plants in a week and we can compare the differences.

What are you dosing for sulfur? Sulfur deficiency can also cause yellowing.
 
#5 ·
Zapins, thanks for helping me. Unfortunately it's worse than I thought. Upon close inspection I discovered that plants are severely missing some nutrient(s).

Here's Bacopa, extreme closeup. Image on the left is a healthy mature leaf. The other two images are pale new shots.



Here's Anubias barteri, new leaf:



The same can be said for Vallisneria.

I've noticed bad growth about 5-6 days before I started fertilizing. However, even fast growing plants (Bacopa) aren't showing any signs of relief. Actually I think they look even worse now. Maybe it needs time or something more drastic? I didn't dose sulfur, just NPK and those micros... ?

I'm not that experienced... but this looks like iron and nitrogen deficiency for my untrained eye... It's severe. What do you think?
 
#6 · (Edited)
Very nice photos. Most people post blurry pictures taken with a 2 mp phone or webcam.

Its not nitrogen deficiency because the new leaves are not smaller than old leaves, also the distribution of the paleness is not correct for that. Nitrogen deficiency is usually more evenly spread over the leaves and does not affect new and old growth evenly it shows pale older growth and normal looking green shoots until it becomes severe then new shoots start getting pale/white looking as they steadily grow smaller and smaller leaves.

It might be sulfur deficiency, the bacopa and val's appearance match it pretty well. A general overall yellowing of the leaves nice and uniform = sulfur deficiency.

This pic shows normal leaf shape.


I think the plants need more time to start recovering. The new growth should start to get more healthy within a week. The bacopa and vals look iron deficient. The anubias pattern of necrosis looks a little strange, not very iron like, but taken in context with the other plants I'd still say its iron.

What substrate are you using? Also, does your house use a salt-softening system?

What brand is the micro fertilizer or are you mixing your own? How are you dosing the macros? Individual salts or a commercial brand? List the chemicals in the ferts.

If there is no sulfate/sulfur containing chemicals in any of the ferts you are dosing then you might have found your problem especially if in a week your plants are not getting better.

The anubias' pattern of yellowing/necrosis is not consistent with iron or nitrogen from what I've seen. It might just be that the plant you have is reacting a bit strangely or this might be showing that the issue is not iron. I've never seen sulfur deficiency in anubias before so it might be that.

Anyway, here is a decent list of deficiencies and some general pics of what they look like. Keep in mind this site shows deficiencies for non-aquatic plants, probably food or garden plants which might not react exactly like aquatic plants. Each species is somewhat unique.
http://www.urbansunshine.com/content/index.php?page=plant-food-facts

Here is a diagram I made a few years ago


Here is APC's current gallery of deficiencies. With any luck I'll be renovating this part of the site to be more accessible and more complete. If you'd like to give me permission to save your pictures into the database you could help contribute to our aquatic database of deficiencies for future people? It would also be helpful if you could post follow up pictures when the plants start recovering in a week or so. If you want to give the plants another 5-7 days to start showing if they are recovering with the current fertilizer doses, then try adding sulfur and see if that improves then we could conclusively nail it down to one or the other.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquarium-pictures/browseimages.php?c=12&userid=&t=

*edit*
I just had another look at the original anubias picture, it looks like it is being grown emersed outside of water? Can you post a pic of the entire plant?
 
#7 · (Edited)
Very nice photos. Most people post blurry pictures taken with a 2 mp phone or webcam.
I know what you mean! :rolleyes: Thanks! Oh yeah, I'm a pro family photographer and I do that for a living. :D I thought these images were just snaps that I took while I was inspecting plants. I'm glad they are fine and usable. By all means, feel free to use them.

Its not nitrogen deficiency because the new leaves are not smaller than old leaves, also the distribution of the paleness is not correct for that. Nitrogen deficiency is usually more evenly spread over the leaves and does not affect new and old growth evenly it shows pale older growth and normal looking green shoots until it becomes severe then new shoots start getting pale/white looking as they steadily grow smaller and smaller leaves.
True, but I also had Ludwigia glandulosa and it just fell apart. First, the oldest leaves massively started to get yellow and die. The plant struggled to produce new shots, they were tiny and reddish, but they too went yellow and died. I was left with bare stems and several shots. I discarded everything. In that time, every other plants looked totally healthy and I was sure it was Ludwigia that had problems.
Now it looks like Nitrogen was deficient...?!

It might be sulfur deficiency, the bacopa and val's appearance match it pretty well. A general overall yellowing of the leaves nice and uniform = sulfur deficiency.
Yes, but I have pretty hard water... from what I've read, sulfur deficiency isn't common in hard water.
And it's quite rare, isn't it?

I think the plants need more time to start recovering. The new growth should start to get more healthy within a week. The bacopa and vals look iron deficient. The anubias pattern of necrosis looks a little strange, not very iron like, but taken in context with the other plants I'd still say its iron.
I completely agree with you, Anubias doesn't look like iron-only.

What substrate are you using? Also, does your house use a salt-softening system?

What brand is the micro fertilizer or are you mixing your own? How are you dosing the macros? Individual salts or a commercial brand? List the chemicals in the ferts. If there is no sulfate/sulfur containing chemicals in any of the ferts you are dosing then you might have found your problem especially if in a week your plants are not getting better.
Substrate is JBL florapol, it contains iron (duh!) and clay, no salt-softening system (only for a dish washer ;) ). I mixed my own fertilizers.

In 1 liter there's K 1400ppm, Mg 1600ppm, NO3 10000 ppm, PO4 1000ppm. I add 1ml to 10l of water every day, 20ml in total. Micros have the same dilution, Fe 700ppm, Zn 100ppm, Mn 170ppm, Cu 13ppm, B 115ppm, Mo 5ppm.

The anubias' pattern of yellowing/necrosis is not consistent with iron or nitrogen from what I've seen. It might just be that the plant you have is reacting a bit strangely or this might be showing that the issue is not iron. I've never seen sulfur deficiency in anubias before so it might be that.

Anyway, here is a decent list of deficiencies and some general pics of what they look like. Keep in mind this site shows deficiencies for non-aquatic plants, probably food or garden plants which might not react exactly like aquatic plants. Each species is somewhat unique.
http://www.urbansunshine.com/content/index.php?page=plant-food-facts

Here is APC's current gallery of deficiencies. With any luck I'll be renovating this part of the site to be more accessible and more complete. If you'd like to give me permission to save your pictures into the database you could help contribute to our aquatic database of deficiencies for future people? It would also be helpful if you could post follow up pictures when the plants start recovering in a week or so. If you want to give the plants another 5-7 days to start showing if they are recovering with the current fertilizer doses, then try adding sulfur and see if that improves then we could conclusively nail it down to one or the other.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquarium-pictures/browseimages.php?c=12&userid=&t=

*edit*
I just had another look at the original anubias picture, it looks like it is being grown emersed outside of water? Can you post a pic of the entire plant?
Thank you very much for those links, taking your time to write and help! Urbansunshine deficiency drawings look very good! I will post the follow up images here, once my plants recover... hopefully soon enough. I don't grow Anubias emersed, I pulled it out for close inspection. However, it did grow emersed before I bought it! Can that be the reason for sick/strange new leaves, going from emersed to submersed?! I don't currently have the pic of the whole plant... It looks very big and healthy... except the 3 new leaves.
 
#8 ·
Just to say that Bacopa's new leaves seem a bit greener than before. However, I should note that those old thick, pure green leaves of bacopa were formed while the plant was growing emersed.
The plant is probably adjusting to submersed environment and that may be the cause for the loss of green with more paler ones? Hm?

I guess I'll have to wait for A. barteri to grow new leaves, to see if those deficiencies have cleared.

The plants that give me the most trouble so far are E. parvula and Vallis tortifolia.

V. tortifolia is growing, but the leaves fade and turn red/brown prematurely. I lost a whole bunch of leaves in last 2 weeks. However, the plant keeps growing new ones... but it doesn't look bushy.

E. parvula, on the other hand, is just stagnating. It's neither growing (only a bit...) nor dying. I cut all taller blades to force new growth.
 
#9 ·
Hmm I think we'll have our answer when a new anubias leaf grows in. Good to hear the bacopa looks a little better.

Emersed growth often dies off or becomes ratty looking when submersed so that might not be helping the diagnosis in general. Though there is definitely a nutrient deficiency since many plants are showing similar signs.

I eagerly await the new leaf and pictures :)
 
#10 ·
I'm wondering if it's not actually a toxicity of some sort. I've seen some vaguely similar patterns in fertilizer-burnt terrestrial plants, though due to the air exposure the overdosed leaves quickly dessicate instead of turning clear like that Anubias.

FWIW Anubias almost never drop leaves when transitioning from emersed to submersed growth. I highly doubt that's a contributor in that plant's case, at least.

As to what toxicity it might be (assuming that's even the case), I can't really speculate—almost every time I've seen a fertilizer burn it was a comprehensive fertilizer that caused it, so no clue which element actually did the plant in...
 
#12 ·
Sometimes I wonder the same... however, the symptoms started before I added any fertilizer. I was following Tropica's 1-90 days advices... I no longer follow it because I don't agree with everything they said there and think that maybe it caused some issues in the first place.

They strongly advised NOT to use any fertilizer in the first like 3 weeks and only a 1/2 dose for several more weeks with water changes every 3-4 days. Some of my plants adjusted to the new environment very quickly and began growing like usual. With just a couple of snails and amano shrimps (not enough food / waste), frequent WCs and no fertilizer, maybe they took all nutrients and left other plants starving? That's how I think it started, I might be wrong though.

Anyway I no longer add DIY micros. I bought EasyLife's Profito and Ferro (Fe) supplement and I dose using this calculator

Thanks!
 
#13 · (Edited)
You know. I was doing a bit of reading about micro deficiencies and I found something that seems to fit with this issue very closely.

Since you are mixing your own fertilizers it might be possible that you have a Molybdenum deficiency. I bolded the relevant parts below.

"Symptoms develop quickly in 2-4 days in successive leaves. Oldest leaves are sometimes less affected than adjacent leaves, but symptoms are designated primary symptoms. Plants given 0.00005 ppm Mo are initially green and show little or no mottling. Such plants, or those that have made temporary recovery, later show distinct secondary symptoms of whiptail, which appear about 7-10 weeks after seeds are sown. They involve young leaves are rarely develop in plants showing severe primary symptoms. Small yellow-green or ivory chlorotic translucent areas develop near the base of a young leaf when about 6 to 15 cm. long. There are usually three to six such areas in a single vertical row between major veins close to one or both sides of the midrib. These areas rapidly become necrotic and perforate. As the leaf expands they produce irregular stellate holes. This stage is usually confined to one or two leaves. In subsequent leaves the breakdown occurs increasingly in marginal regions. This causes cessation of lamina growth but not of leaf elongation. These leaves are often twisted and elongate with varying amounts of narrow, irregular lamina, except for a limited area of entire but often distorted lamina at the apex. The lamina is often corrugated, irregularly cupped, relatively thick, turgid, and abnormally dark or blue-green. In young leaves up to 3 cm. long the margins may show water-soaking and brown necrosis when the lamina is only a few millimeters wide. If these leaves elongate they are almost or totally devoid of lamina. Such leaves may fail to elongate, but they exude a clear brown fluir, become gelatinous, and finally die in 24 hours, leaving a dried brown pyramid of dead tissue surrounding the terminal bud. Death of the growing point usually occurs at this stage, but leaf primordia may develop into rounded stumps. The growing point of the leaf may die, and these leaves cease to elongate becoming stunted and brown at the apex, with distortion of the lamina behind. The old leaves of these plants remain normal except that many are thick, turgid, and dark green. Plants showing moderate primary symptoms may develop secondary symptoms directly at the margins of young leaves. Death of rudimentary leaves and of the growing point may follow rapidly. The extent, timing, and relative predominance of the various stages described vary and result in a variety of final forms that comprise the general condition called "whiptail." At 0.0005 ppm Mo, the flower curds are irregular with leafy bracts dividing the curd into several areas. Pedicels wilt after elongation, and flowers die without setting see, or seeds remain green or pale brown an shrivel before maturing."

Pg 163

Article:SYMPTOMS OF MOLYBDENUM DEFICIENCY IN PLANTS
Author:HEWITT, E. J.
Journal:Soil science
ISSN:0038-075X
Date:03/01/1956
Volume:81
Issue:3
Page:159 - 172
DOI:10.1097/00010694-195603000-00002
 
#14 · (Edited)
Thanks Zapins, I'm already adding micros with Mo, but I guess I finally found the real cause.

I finally obtained reliable tests today and I was shocked (or not!) to see that both NO3 and PO4 are ZERO, even with PPS dosing. I think what we have here is the "case closed" for all of my plant troubles...

So today I bought Easy Life's Nitro & Fosfo to manually add the required doses to reach 10mg/l of NO3 and 1mg/l of PO4 and will give up PPS dosing. I guess I will monitor N-P values for several days and see how fast the plants use them. My goal is to reach the target with weekly N-P doses + adding mild micros and K every day.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Of course.

See for yourself! This is just 24h after I added both nitrates and phosphates!
Looks like there was a severe NO3 and PO4 deficiency that lasted for weeks!



The whole tank looks more green now, especially noticeable on fast growing plants.

I also had several Vallis that rotted under the gravel and were constantly producing bad, yellow leaves that soon died. When I pulled decayed rhizomes out of the water there was a bad smell. Other Vallis look healthy and have good white roots so I hope they will soon fully recover and begin to flourish.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Hmm. The plant symptoms don't look like characteristic N and P deficiency. The symptoms don't match N at all, and don't follow the same pattern of necrosis that P deficiency takes, though maybe a little bit.

Here is what I think happened:

Plants grow as fast as the limiting nutrient, so if Mo was completely lacking you'd get Mo deficiency signs (which is what the anubias is showing in the first photo). It wouldn't matter if N and P were limited or abundant because Mo was the one that it ran out of. Once Mo was added the plant starts to grow as fast as the next limiting nutrient, in this case N and P. Leading to the quickly recovering plant you see now.

And here is my thinking and supporting evidence:

Classic P deficiency:
Notice the holes in the leaves and damage spreading outwards, also very important - notice that the damage is on older leaves only, P is a highly mobile nutrient that can be removed from old tissue which causes damage.


Compared with your anubias:
Note the clear appearance of leaves and irregular pattern of death which differs from the clearly defined leaf tissue death and radiating damage. Also very important is damage occurs on new leaves only, and Mo is a sparingly mobile nutrient so it cannot easily be moved from old leaves to new, leading to new leaf damage and sometimes a slight darkening of old leaves)


The important thing is now you have plants that grow healthy again!

I am curious to see how the anubias recovers over time. Would love to see pics of new leaves when they come up!
 
#18 · (Edited)
Hmmm, it does make sense, thanks. I think it was a combination of many deficiencies but N-P was probably the most drastic.

You see, I still don't have many fish, not enough of waste or food. There's no way I had more N-P back then. And even with PPS pro method, I didn't supply enough of N-P to be noticed by the tests.

So... plants probably used all of PPS-dosages with zero N-P being freely available in the water. But that wasn't enough.

Besides Mo, I also think I had an iron deficiency, but N-P was probably the other limiting factor. I lost all of my Ludwigia glandulosa that way - all of older leaves yellowed and died from the tip to the stem. Eventually, the whole plants have died. But it was the first and only plant in that time to show any deficiency. It was just the beginning, and I thought I had problems with Ludwigia only.

I will wait and monitor the values to see how will the plants adjust. Let's hope for the best. :)
One of my Anubias barteri is growing a new leaf... can't wait to see it!
 
#20 ·
Unfortunately, new A. barteri and A. nana leaves are damaged as well... Less necrotic tissues, but look a bit more deformed. The leaves are still new, will see if they are going to shape up.

I don't honestly understand... Anubias are one of the easiest species to grow yet I'm having big issues with these plants...
 
#21 ·
Just to tell that all plants now seem much greener, better, with Echinodoruses producing lush green leaves. Crypts flourish, mosses are green and grow like a weed. Many of Vallisneria tortifolias died, but those that survived are now vibrant green and also grow very fast. Part of the reason I think is because I planted them deeply and covered their crowns - they hate that.

I also planted some more ferns and bunch of Staurogyne repens in front. Hopefully Anubias plants will catch up as well, what's done is done.
 
#22 ·
Good to know the changes started to work. By the way if this happens again in the future we have a guy on the forum that can run a very detailed accurate water analysis to see what all the micro levels are. He's looking for water samples from people in the hobby.

See this thread:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/88403-trouble-farm-help-10.html

Mo is also important in the use of nitrogen as nitrate. Without Mo plants can't use NO3 as an N source so they tend to turn yellowish because of that.
 
#23 ·
Very interesting idea! I wish someone here with the lab would do that kind of accurate tests.

However, I'm in Europe so, sending the water samples to the US would be a bit of uh-oh. Contamination of the water during transport would be another issue.

I'm very certain that all deficiencies are now gone... still keeping my fingers crossed though. :)
 
#24 ·
Me again... well, everything is flourishing EXCEPT - Anubias plants! Yes, the easiest plants to grow, yet mine started developing leaves with transparent patches - again! It was fine couple of months ago...
It's not so drastic as it used to be, but it's not normal either. This time, new leaves have about 10% of semi-transparent patches.

My tank is 7 months old now so I assume there's plenty of nutrients. I'm adding KNO3, PO4 and traces every week + Easy Carbo every day. No other plant is showing any deficiencies. In fact, Vallisnerria tortifolia is making a jungle, has thick and wide leaves, Echinodoruses have red leaves with flowers and every other stem plant is doing fine (ludwigia, bacopa, rotala, etc.).

I've seen many Anubias plants in tanks where people do absolutely nothing, except feed the fish. And that's all. Yet mine, with all kind of fertilizers is showing deficiencies! :confused:
 
#25 ·
I've often thought about this thread and the anubias issue you have had. The more I read in the journals the more I am unsure of the diagnosis of this thread.

Recently JeffyFunk has been offering water analysis for people's tank and tap water in an effort to figure out what causes BBA. If you can provide some information about your tank (substrate/CO2/Lighting/Ferts/Picture) then he will test your water for free and give you a detailed readout of all the micros/dissolved oragnics/hardness/etc...

He'll need at least 100 mL of your tap/RO water (the water you use for WC), and 100 mL from your tank taken just before you do your weekly water change. Put it in a doubled up ziplock bag with a label on the bag of which water is which and mail it to him.

I think knowing that information might help us figure out your problem and the BBA story as well.

You can message him here for his address:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/private.php?do=newpm&u=10362
 
#26 ·
Thanks Zapins, you've already mentioned him, several (months) posts ago. However, I'm from Europe and it's not possible for me to send the samples.

I did read a bit about "Anubias transparent patches", and some pointed out that it could be a CO2 deficiency. Too much light is hitting the Anubias plants with too little CO2. The cure is to either raise the CO2 levels or put the plant in the shade.

Hmmm! Makes me wonder, I really don't have a CO2 anymore. I used to make a DIY CO2, but now I rely exclusively on EasyCarbo/Excel with very positive effects on other plants that I keep.
 
#27 ·
It is possible to ship packages to other countries. I've done it several times from the US. You just need to fill out a form verifying that there are no hazardous materials/etc in the package, it doesn't cost too much extra compared with a package sent within a given country (maybe double the shipping cost).

People online always think plant problems are a CO2 deficiency. This idea seems to have been started and perpetuated by Tom Barr, yet there is basically no scientific evidence that CO2 deficiencies show visible symptoms. In fact, in the few papers I've found on CO2 deficiencies it seems that a true deficiency shows no plant symptoms, only a halt in the growth rate.

See:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01904169009364136?journalCode=lpla20#preview

Also, anubias is one of the aquatic plants that can use carbonates in the water as a CO2 source. When it does this the leaves are covered in white calcium deposits. This is called biogenic decalcification and is a sure sign that CO2 gas is limited/not present in the water. Your plants do not show that.

Furthermore, the stem plants you have are growing well and they have a much higher metabolism and higher requirements for nutrients and CO2. You'd see them stop growing completely.

I wonder if your anubias are showing signs of the anubias disease that has been going around recently? Leaves tend to go clear and melt, along with stems and even rhizomes going soft. It seems to affect mainly anubias species and is possibly caused by a type of microscopic worm. I had it a while back when I ordered several species of anubias from an online vendor. The stuff spreads fairly quickly and is difficult to get rid of.
 
#28 ·
It is possible to ship packages to other countries. I've done it several times from the US. You just need to fill out a form verifying that there are no hazardous materials/etc in the package, it doesn't cost too much extra compared with a package sent within a given country (maybe double the shipping cost).
Really? Thanks! I thought sending the chemistry samples would require something more than a proof. I'll check it out with our Postal service.

People online always think plant problems are a CO2 deficiency. This idea seems to have been started and perpetuated by Tom Barr, yet there is basically no scientific evidence that CO2 deficiencies show visible symptoms. In fact, in the few papers I've found on CO2 deficiencies it seems that a true deficiency shows no plant symptoms, only a halt in the growth rate.

See:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01904169009364136?journalCode=lpla20#preview

Also, anubias is one of the aquatic plants that can use carbonates in the water as a CO2 source. When it does this the leaves are covered in white calcium deposits. This is called biogenic decalcification and is a sure sign that CO2 gas is limited/not present in the water. Your plants do not show that.

Furthermore, the stem plants you have are growing well and they have a much higher metabolism and higher requirements for nutrients and CO2. You'd see them stop growing completely.

I wonder if your anubias are showing signs of the anubias disease that has been going around recently? Leaves tend to go clear and melt, along with stems and even rhizomes going soft. It seems to affect mainly anubias species and is possibly caused by a type of microscopic worm. I had it a while back when I ordered several species of anubias from an online vendor. The stuff spreads fairly quickly and is difficult to get rid of.
Thanks for the link and interesting insights into CO2 and clearing things out for Anubias.

I think it's not the worm or any kind of pest/disease. The plant overall looks healthy and green, no melting, no rotting. All leaves that were developed without problems continue to flourish. Even those with transparent patches get more green over time - the more mature they become the less visible the patches are.
However, it's rather annoying to have the patches in the first place. These plants are beautiful and the patches spoil it somewhat. I trimmed really bad looking leaves that formed several months ago, so it's not the concern anymore. What troubles me is that this started reappearing... in much lesser degree but it's still there.
 
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