[sn0wlvlan]

I've recently setup a new 24gallon Walstad tank. Day 3 and 4 in, I'm seeing high ammonia and nitrate values. Daily water changes, but still high. Your valuable opinions are appreciated! Details below:

I'm referencing my post in from FishForums where I got amazing feedback from the community. But searching along, I do see @dwalstad here which is still active and is so exciting!

• DIRT: 0.5 - 1 inch (normal garden soil with no fertilizer and removed as much organic matters as possible, mixed with some crushed lava rock)
• CAPPING: 1 inch Medium Montana Sand
• PLANTS: Around 29 plants (split into smaller portions) spread into smaller portions
  • Epiphytes: Anubias, Java Fern
  • Stems (still mid length need to wait it out to grow): Limnophila Sessiliflora, Rotala Macrandra, Ludwigia Repens, Myriophyllum, Limnophila Aquatica
  • Foreground: Monte Carlo, HC, Mini Hairgrass, Eriocaulon Quinquangulare, Lilaeopsis Brasiliensis, Alternanthera Reineckii, Ludwigia Palustris, Cryptocoryne Parva

TANK:

WATER TEST (measured before water change) & MAINTENANCE:
DAY 1:

Then did a 90% water change for the first time (apart from water change during first setup).
Added API Aqua Essential, API Quickstart (BB), API Leaf Zone

DAY 3:

30 - 40% water change
Added API Aqua Essential, API Quickstart (BB), API Leaf Zone

DAY 4:

30% water change
Added API Aqua Essential, API Quickstart (BB), API Leaf Zone

DAY 5: Similar with 1ppm ammonia & 20ppm nitrates

Are these normal or part of the cycling process for walstad? It's normal for spikes to happen during the start, but these values seem too high consistently. Do I keep doing my maintenance routine, or are there any changes I should make?

I've gotten many valuable insights from FishForums, mainly:

• Nothing is certain when it comes to soil (as there are so many types and combinations). Dependent on the soil, there can be scenarios where spikes will be observed, while some plants start off absorbing fast hence minimal/no spikes.
• Walstad's primarily for the initial benefit of CO2 from the decomposition
• Fast growing column feeders are key
• Fish first, plants second. Research deeply before diving in.
• Soil substrates, although capped with sand substrate, is not suitable for substrate fish due to the sharpness (but i've seen otherwise)

Thanks in advance!

 

[mistergreen]

All the hardscape might cause anaerobic issues in the soil in time. At the moment, try removing the wood. I wonder if the wood decomposition might cause additional ammonia spike.

 

[sn0wlvlan]

All the hardscape might cause anaerobic issues in the soil in time. At the moment, try removing the wood. I wonder if the wood decomposition might cause additional ammonia spike.

Thanks for the insights @mistergreen. But from my current analysis and many examples online, I have a good/bad feeling the source of the spike is solely from my soil selection.

Day 6 today and 1-2amm, 20nitrates too.
As some advised me, it's probably my soil.
I've added in 6 new plants today too, hitting ~ 35 plants in my tank.

 

[jibbajab14]

I always get ammonia spikes for the first couple of weeks in my tanks. My most recent tank (topsoil + a small bit of compost + oyster shell grit + red clay) got up to 4ppm at two weeks, at which point I performed a water change. It's stayed between 0-0.25ppm since.

Another tank experienced a consistent 2ppm no matter how frequent my water changes, so I removed most of the hardscape and added another 1 inch of cap (2 inches total) and made sure to poke the soil several times a day to release anaerobic gas pockets until the plant roots established.

My guess is that your hardscape compressed your cap in some areas, leading to nutrient leaching. I would try adding more cap and possibly removing a few heavier pieces of hardscape. Which is unfortunate because your scape really is lovely.

 

[sn0wlvlan]

I always get ammonia spikes for the first couple of weeks in my tanks. My most recent tank (topsoil + a small bit of compost + oyster shell grit + red clay) got up to 4ppm at two weeks, at which point I performed a water change. It's stayed between 0-0.25ppm since.

Another tank experienced a consistent 2ppm no matter how frequent my water changes, so I removed most of the hardscape and added another 1 inch of cap (2 inches total) and made sure to poke the soil several times a day to release anaerobic gas pockets until the plant roots established.

My guess is that your hardscape compressed your cap in some areas, leading to nutrient leaching. I would try adding more cap and possibly removing a few heavier pieces of hardscape. Which is unfortunate because your scape really is lovely.

Thanks for sharing @jibbajab14 and the kind words!
My situation now is exactly like your second, and the doubts that I have are exactly like you've mentioned.
My capping might be too short given the thicker soil later, my scapes indeed might have compressed down certain areas cuz I can feel it shaking a lil during water changes.

I guess it's still not too late to rescape and save my plants now as it will just be day 7 tmr. I might also change my soil to the highly recommended Miracle Gro Potting Mix.

Thanks!

 

[sn0wlvlan]

Thanks for sharing @jibbajab14 and the kind words!
My situation now is exactly like your second, and the doubts that I have are exactly like you've mentioned.
My capping might be too short given the thicker soil later, my scapes indeed might have compressed down certain areas cuz I can feel it shaking a lil during water changes.

I guess it's still not too late to rescape and save my plants now as it will just be day 7 tmr. I might also change my soil to the highly recommended Miracle Gro Potting Mix.

Thanks!

Thinking which is wiser.

Add sand capping (another inch) making it 2inches in total.

Or might as well change my soil as well since I'll need to uproot everything.

Opinions? Cheers!

 

[Jorge Soirse]

I would wait the spike out. If you want to do something "drastic", buy a bunch of hornwort or the like and stick it in there to soak up ammonia. Don't see why you should redo everything.

 

[maico996]

Adding more to your sand cap is going to have the opposite effect that you're looking for. With sand, one inch is the maximum you would want, and preferably less. As a cap, sand is much more dense than gravel so your soil will have a harder time receiving oxygen when the cap is thicker. If you add more sand you run the risk of creating anaerobic soil conditions which will have a negative impact on your tank. With all that hardscape in your tank you're already going to have a hard time because you have relatively few plants compared to the available real estate you would have without it. And if that hardscape is sitting on top of your substrate and not the bottom aquarium glass, then you're only asking for a lot of anaerobic soil issues.
Walstad tanks are designed to focus on three things - growing plants, happy inhabitants and keeping it simple. Adding a bunch of hardscape/wood just takes space away from growing plants, which is what you need to draw nutrients from the soil and filter the water, which is what you need to keep your inhabitants happy. Growing plants should be your first priority, then adding snails/shrimp/fish. Once plants start growing the ammonia should drop to levels where it will be safe to add animals. Adding some floating plants like Water Lettuce or Hornwort will really help in absorbing the excess nutrients in your water, which you will desperately need if you keep all that hardscape in your tank.
Have some patience while everything settles in. Plants aren't going to start growing immediately, and some will die. Most likely your Monte Carlo will melt away because it generally requires high light levels and CO2 to thrive. The plants will figure it out amongst themselves and you'll just need to go with the ones that survive and thrive. Unfortunately you won't know that for a while.

 

[sn0wlvlan]

Thanks for the advices!
Alright agree at patience is key in the end. Waiting it out, with these values that I have, is my maintenance routine OK or I'm doing water changes too frequently disrupting the balance?

Currently I'm doing daily changes, 30-50%.
With every change, adding API Aqua Essential, API Quick Start, and for weekly topping the API Leaf Zone.

Thanks a bunch!

 

[johnwesley0]

Here's what I think: At this point, what you have now and are likely to wind up with, if you stick with the setup you have, is a very nice-looking tank that is wholly dependent on beneficial bacteria to control ammonia and nitrite production. In other words, a tank that depends on The Nitrogen Cycle. The plants will do some of the work, but not enough to starve out the bacteria and you will have to regularly monitor the nitrate level to make sure it doesn't rise too much above the 40ppm level at which point it begins to become toxic to fish.

The chief drawback with this sort of setup is that it only takes a nosedive in PH level (below 6) to cause the bacterial colony to "crash" and the ammonia levels to spike in-between periodic water changes.

One way to add more plants without upsetting all that aqua scaping is to take advantage of the surface of the water. Many popular floating plants flourish by using nitrate as a nutrient.

More Notes:

1) Try not to think of the gravel/sand cap as something to keep nutrients from leeching. That's not its purpose. It's just a way to keep the soil from stirring up when you add plants. And you probably don't even need it for that. Soil rarely stays suspended in the water for long.

2) One drawback with floating plants is that you've now cut back on the amount of light reaching the bottom of your tank, making things difficult for the foreground cover plants. If you absolutely are in love with the present setup, you may want to invest in some fast-growing houseplants that do well with their roots dangling in the water, but with their leaves and stems above the lights. Pothos would be just the thing. The biggest lucky bamboo branches you can find would do well.

 

[sn0wlvlan]

Here's what I think: At this point, what you have now and are likely to wind up with, if you stick with the setup you have, is a very nice-looking tank that is wholly dependent on beneficial bacteria to control ammonia and nitrite production. In other words, a tank that depends on The Nitrogen Cycle. The plants will do some of the work, but not enough to starve out the bacteria and you will have to regularly monitor the nitrate level to make sure it doesn't rise too much above the 40ppm level at which point it begins to become toxic to fish.

The chief drawback with this sort of setup is that it only takes a nosedive in PH level (below 6) to cause the bacterial colony to "crash" and the ammonia levels to spike in-between periodic water changes.

One way to add more plants without upsetting all that aqua scaping is to take advantage of the surface of the water. Many popular floating plants flourish by using nitrate as a nutrient.

More Notes:

1) Try not to think of the gravel/sand cap as something to keep nutrients from leeching. That's not its purpose. It's just a way to keep the soil from stirring up when you add plants. And you probably don't even need it for that. Soil rarely stays suspended in the water for long.

2) One drawback with floating plants is that you've now cut back on the amount of light reaching the bottom of your tank, making things difficult for the foreground cover plants. If you absolutely are in love with the present setup, you may want to invest in some fast-growing houseplants that do well with their roots dangling in the water, but with their leaves and stems above the lights. Pothos would be just the thing. The biggest lucky bamboo branches you can find would do well.

Thanks for the tips! I do plan to introduce floaters, but as you have mentioned, prolly a time later to allow the current plants to be more established.
The house plants suggestion actually never came across my mind, and I think that would look great too. Appreciate it!

 

[dwalstad]

Adding more to your sand cap is going to have the opposite effect that you're looking for. With sand, one inch is the maximum you would want, and preferably less. As a cap, sand is much more dense than gravel so your soil will have a harder time receiving oxygen when the cap is thicker. If you add more sand you run the risk of creating anaerobic soil conditions which will have a negative impact on your tank. With all that hardscape in your tank you're already going to have a hard time because you have relatively few plants compared to the available real estate you would have without it. And if that hardscape is sitting on top of your substrate and not the bottom aquarium glass, then you're only asking for a lot of anaerobic soil issues.
Walstad tanks are designed to focus on three things - growing plants, happy inhabitants and keeping it simple. Adding a bunch of hardscape/wood just takes space away from growing plants, which is what you need to draw nutrients from the soil and filter the water, which is what you need to keep your inhabitants happy. Growing plants should be your first priority, then adding snails/shrimp/fish. Once plants start growing the ammonia should drop to levels where it will be safe to add animals. Adding some floating plants like Water Lettuce or Hornwort will really help in absorbing the excess nutrients in your water, which you will desperately need if you keep all that hardscape in your tank.
Have some patience while everything settles in. Plants aren't going to start growing immediately, and some will die. Most likely your Monte Carlo will melt away because it generally requires high light levels and CO2 to thrive. The plants will figure it out amongst themselves and you'll just need to go with the ones that survive and thrive. Unfortunately you won't know that for a while.

I would agree with this quote completely. You are mixing methods--aquascaping with low-tech. Doesn't work well and shows a total lack of understanding of soil chemistry, microbiology, etc.

Yes, plants need soil to grow well, but soil needs rooted plants to stay healthy. Otherwise the soil just become a festering anaerobic pocket, generating ammonia and other toxins. All that wood just piles on more problems.

Sorry to be so negative. Consider this an educational experience.

 

[sn0wlvlan]

I would agree with this quote completely. You are mixing methods--aquascaping with low-tech. Doesn't work well and shows a total lack of understanding of soil chemistry, microbiology, etc.

Yes, plants need soil to grow well, but soil needs rooted plants to stay healthy. Otherwise the soil just become a festering anaerobic pocket, generating ammonia and other toxins. All that wood just piles on more problems.

Sorry to be so negative. Consider this an educational experience.

👍

Thanks for the educational advice.

 

[dwalstad]

👍

Thanks for the educational advice.

You have a good attitude.

 

[Gooblikon]

From my 45 set-up the massive stump I have only seems to release tannins and if anything is essentially a large sponge filter. As mentioned previously it needs to make contact with the glass, could try shoving it in further without needing to reset. As for water changes, from my limited experience of two tanks, water changes in this stage can be left to evaporation. Should you choose to reset, there are much better locally made organic blends of substrate than Miracle-Gro which uses a very heavy manure blend from what I can gather.

 

[jibbajab14]

Adding more to your sand cap is going to have the opposite effect that you're looking for. With sand, one inch is the maximum you would want, and preferably less.

I agree with everything in your post except for this particular statement. Anaerobic conditions will develop regardless of whether OP uses 1 inch or 2 inches of sand. In my experience, I’ve found that a 2 inch cap works better than 1 inch, as a thicker cap does a better job of gripping stem plants until they root and provides a factor of safety against nutrient leaching. The key, as you pointed out, is to prevent anaerobic conditions by providing aeration through plant roots, MTS, and poking it with a stick.

 

[johnwesley0]

I agree with everything in your post except for this particular statement. Anaerobic conditions will develop regardless of whether OP uses 1 inch or 2 inches of sand. In my experience, I’ve found that a 2 inch cap works better than 1 inch, as a thicker cap does a better job of gripping stem plants until they root and provides a factor of safety against nutrient leaching. The key, as you pointed out, is to prevent anaerobic conditions by providing aeration through plant roots, MTS, and poking it with a stick.

We're really cherry-picking each other's individual experiences at this point. One person might be able to get their dwarf sag to root in a two inch thick cap of sand. Others, might not. But I would disagree with this statement:

and provides a factor of safety against nutrient leaching.

There's no real scientific argument in favor of trying to turn your substrate into a hermetically sealed environment. As @dwalstad states in Ecology of the Planted Aquarium
"For tanks without CO2 injection, a soil underlayer helps greatly, because the decomposition of soil organic matter releases CO2 into the water for several months after the tank is set up. Without soil in the tank, plants would depend almost entirely on the fishfood carbon input. But it requires time to build up a substantial carbon reservoir from fishfood."
-p.84 Q&A,

The same is basically true for ammonia. You want/need some of it to "leach" from the substrate in order to feed stem plants, plants that get most of their nutrients through their leaves and stems.

If there's too much ammonia/ammonium or any other nutrient in the water table, the solution is to change the water - or add more plants, not to try to control leaching from the soil.

 

[jibbajab14]

I should have specified “excessive” nutrient leaching. Respectfully, a 2 inch sand layer isn’t going to create a hermetically sealed environment. It will simply slow the rate of NH3 diffusion into the water column. I don’t see why this approach can’t be used in conjunction with water changes and adding more plants, other than “Diana says so”.

 

[johnwesley0]

It will simply slow the rate of NH3 diffusion into the water column.

You may be right. My point is that adjusting the amount of sand or gravel you put on top of your soil is not the most efficient way of dealing with excess nutrients.

I don’t see why this approach can’t be used in conjunction with water changes and adding more plants, other than “Diana says so”.

Yeah, I don't understand what you're trying to say here. The name of the thread bears her name, for goodness sake.

 

[jibbajab14]

Yeah, I don't understand what you're trying to say here. The name of the thread bears her name, for goodness sake.

My point is the 0.5”-1” thickness is her recommendation, not a hard rule. As long as the principles of aquatic ecology laid out in her book are thoughtfully considered and incorporated into the aquarium, if not to a T, there’s no reason it can’t be successful. But I’ll stop arguing because this seems to be getting hostile and I didn’t mean for it to.