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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Enclosed is my recently published paper on CO2 controllers. Unfortunately it requires 3 separate Word documents and is rather technical; however, I did want you to understand how valuable these devices are.

If you only want to know how to set up your controller just open part 3 and go to the section titled: How to set up your controller?

These documents are copyright and unauthorized distribution of them is prohibited; however, you may quote any part as long as point to this site and give credit to ray-the-pilot.

I suggest sending any controversial comment to me as a PM.
 

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A PH controller monitors PH and turns on / off the co2 based on your set points and is how you usually control the co2 automatically.
Just wondering if your paper is on how to set up a pH monitor / controller (like the Milwaukee SMS 122) to control the co2 because I have never heard of a co2 controller.
I guess if I were to read your paper, I would get my answer.
 

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Yep, I realize my mistake of saying monitor when I meant controller.

After reading some of the papers, is this thing actually a Co2 controller measuring Co2 and not PH.
He was adding PPM's of Co2 levels to the water but still seems to be measuring PH, not Co2.

But this might be a more accurate way to calibrate the PH probes instead of using PH solutions.
IDK, is it? good idea though.
 

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After reading some of the papers, is this thing actually a Co2 controller measuring Co2 and not PH.
He was adding PPM's of Co2 levels to the water but still seems to be measuring PH, not Co2.
I got out of it that he was using a pH monitor and measuing pH after he had added so much CO2 to the tank. But who knows? Its published though... I don't know where....Aquatic Plant Central?

But this might be a more accurate way to calibrate the PH probes instead of using PH solutions.
IDK, is it?
No its not! Try explaining this one to the scientific community....LOL. pH solutions are known standards. No one could mix up a little CO2 into water and come nearly as accurate as pH calibration standards. Remember CO2 is a gas and when dissolved in water it will very quickly gas off.
 

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OK, I buy that, sounded technical in his paper though.

I guess I meant that since he knows the co2 levels exactly (I guess he wouldn't, but the way he set up his control sounded sound) then you can set your probes to that known level and you would be measuring the co2 more then the PH it is calculated out at.
IDK it sounds interesting, but I am really tired at this point, so IDK much anymore. LOL
 

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OH, one last thing, I think he said he was adding PPM's of carbon, not Co2, so now I have more then confused me, and maybe you and everyone else ;):D
 

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Yes, its just one big wad of confusion...thats all.

pH probe will only ever measure pH. However, as he pointed out CO2 is in direct relationship with pH and KH. I think Ray agrees with that more or less. Therefore, I don't know why calibrating a pH meter to CO2 standards would ever need to be done.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Yes, its just one big wad of confusion...thats all.

pH probe will only ever measure pH. However, as he pointed out CO2 is in direct relationship with pH and KH. I think Ray agrees with that more or less. Therefore, I don't know why calibrating a pH meter to CO2 standards would ever need to be done.
Let me rephrase your question using a mercury in glass thermometer as an example.

A mercury in glass thermometer will only ever measure the volume of mercury in the tube. However, as he pointed out the mercury volume is in direct relationship with the temperature. I think Ray agrees with that more or less. Therefore, I don't know why calibrating a mercury in glass thermometer to temperature standards would ever need to be done.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Whats wrong with pH calibration standards?
If I were using a thermometer to measure volume I'd calibrate it using volume standards. If I were using it to measure temperature, I'd use temperature standards.

Since I am interested in the absolute level of CO2, I think that it is appropriate to use CO2 standards, don't you?
 

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No. Thermometers don't measure volume. CO2 lowers the pH that is why you see a response on the pH meter.

Who is going to mix up a pail of CO2 water when they want to quickly and easily calibrate their pH meter?. Although your method may work to calibrate your meter it is not user friendly. There is so much error in your method it is not even funny. You are weighing CO2??? Remember how easily CO2 outgases from water....another source of error during your calibration! I would guess more error than any phosphate buffers or anything else could have. Also, do you calibrate at different CO2 concentrations or just one?
 

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Ray, why do you think there is a difference in distribution of co2 in your tank versus Thomas Barrs? If you inject co2 into a system the same why don'twe see the same distribution problems? I think you need to fully analyze the difference in your filter and diffusion systems, if they were the exact same things would make more sense to me at least. I am confused by your write-ups. He injects co2 gets diffused in filter and he gets highest readings at filter outlet, makes sense. as the water flows is seems to lose co2 concentration. Your system seems to dispurse the high co2 water much better than his.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Ray, why do you think there is a difference in distribution of co2 in your tank versus Thomas Barrs? If you inject co2 into a system the same why don'twe see the same distribution problems? I think you need to fully analyze the difference in your filter and diffusion systems, if they were the exact same things would make more sense to me at least. I am confused by your write-ups. He injects co2 gets diffused in filter and he gets highest readings at filter outlet, makes sense. as the water flows is seems to lose co2 concentration. Your system seems to dispurse the high co2 water much better than his.
I've already answered this question here:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/equipment/57094-would-you-want-live-wood-burning.html

The simple answer is this:

Tom Barr reports CO2 all over the place using his system. I report CO2 is the same all over the place using mine. Both of these are scientific facts Ie data. Why this difference exists is a hypothesis and is subject to opinion. The fact is you can get better CO2 distribution using a CO2 controller.

If you really want to understand this better, send me a PM and I'll explain why this is so.
 

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Hi Ray,

To keep the things On-Topic, I moved my post from the other thread to this one.

ray-the-pilot:
I don't know why but I can' open your word document's!:confused:

But are you comparing values from your setup with values from Tom Barr tank setup?
(I didn't read Tom Barr post that you linked.)

But the values and conclusions can not be compared they are from completed different setup's!

Can I propose you to do the following experiment?[smilie=i:
(I can't do it because I broke my PH Controller and I have my co2 running without it.)

1) Trim the plants like you usually do.
2)Take a picture of you tank.
3)Run you tank with the ph controller for a week.
4)Measure the PH in your tank in 5 or 6 points, in the morning in mid-day and at night before lights go off.

This is the second part of the experiment:
5) Unplug the PH controller from the solenoid valve, use it only to measure PH.
6) Open or close your co2 needle valve until you have the desired PH/co2 level in one spot.
(this may take some days, start low and go high until desired value.)
7) Using the picture you have taken the week before, cut your plant to the same size.
8 ) Run the tank without the controler for a week.
9) Measure the PH at the same time of day and same point you measured in 4)

10) post this measurements here! ;)

Almost for sure you will get this conclusions:
-With controller the PH will not fluctuate much, maybe 0,2PH(?)
-Without controller you have bigger PH fluctuation, maybe 1PH,
but you will have the same death/hot spots than you had with controller.

Do you accept this "challenge"? [smilie=n:

([B]I did'nt read this thread yet.... give me 1 or 2 days... to update my readings![/B]:cool:)
 
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