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I actually have a Seachem Iron test (I think you have the same based on how you test the accuracy) and find it to be extremely accurate.
That is correct. I bought it last year at the AGA convention that was held in Atlanta in November. I don't see an expiration date, though. Years ago I also used this same brand kit and used to have problems with the reagent going bad (according to Seachem when I would call them). I guess I should contact Seachem to see what they think.

Thanks,

Andy
 
Get a stem or so of Mayaca fluviatilis. If it's lush and green, you probably have enough for all the rest of your plants, because it requires quite a bit. If it doesn't look lush and green, you don't have enough. Much better than any test kit.
 
Get a stem or so of Mayaca fluviatilis. If it's lush and green, you probably have enough for all the rest of your plants, because it requires quite a bit. If it doesn't look lush and green, you don't have enough. Much better than any test kit.
Interesting advice. I remember having some of this plant years ago. It was one of the few plants that I was actually able to grow well, and I liked how it looked. I'll have to look into getting some.

Thanks,

Andy
 
Man, I've been busy at work lately. Add on top of that, my hot water heater is starting to give trouble, so I think I'm going to have to make some time to replace it.

Oh well, I managed to find time to test for nitrate and phosphate again. This time the NO3 is 25 ppm and the PO4 is .19 ppm. I'm a little confused as to why the PO4 has gone down this time. I'm not sure if I should adjust my recipe or not. Given the fact that it was stable for the last month until now, I'm thinking that maybe I should just ride it out and see if it changes any more. The only thing that is different since last time I checked is the 33% less micro ferts, but I'm not sure if that would cause the PO4 to go down or not.

I started a post to help me decide about which TDS meter to buy, but that flopped. I don't have any better idea now than I did before.

I also still don't know if I should buy a LaMotte Iron test kit, a new Seachem Iron test kit, or just rely on some Mayaca. I am trying to buy some Mayaca but don't have any yet.

I still haven't bought a Potassium kit, either.

Andy
 
I get very confused about the optimal concentration for macro. The first place I read about this was at Chuck dosing calculator. It suggests 5ppm for N, 20ppm for K, and .5 - 1 for P. This site suggests 10-20ppm for N, 10-20ppm for K, and .2-2 of P.

Is there suppose to be a 1:1 ratio for N:K, or is K always suppose to be higher the N? Is there an optimal ratio for the three macro?
 
Get a stem or so of Mayaca fluviatilis. If it's lush and green, you probably have enough for all the rest of your plants, because it requires quite a bit. If it doesn't look lush and green, you don't have enough. Much better than any test kit.
Okay Cavan, I bought some Mayaca fluviatilis and put it in the tank today. Now it's time to see if I can keep it alive. If I can keep it lush and green, even better 8-[.

Andy
 
Just tested nitrate and phosphate again. Found NO3 to be 20 ppm and PO4 to be .3 ppm. This is back to the same types of readings that I was getting before, so I'm not sure what happened last time. Maybe I didn't get the reagents shook up enough or something. Anyway, I decided to increase the KH2PO4 by 50% to see what type of difference that makes. Even though my Hygro polysperma is making a comeback, the oldest leaves are forming holes and falling off. Looking at the deficiency chart in the fertilizing forum, I'm not sure if I have a phosphate problem or a potassium problem (or both), but I figured that this might be worth a shot. I'm thinking since I've backed off on the KNO3 by 75%, I might be having more of an issue with the potassium, but I'm not sure. I'm working on getting a potassium test kit from Lamotte, but it might be awhile (they said they need ten days lead time to get one ready). Hopefully I can get one ordered soon and can then check my levels.

To follow up from last time, the Mayaca is growing some, but I think it might be too early to tell if it is truly happy or not.

Andy
 
Now nitrate is at 16 ppm and phosphate is at .45 ppm. The increase in KH2PO4 resulted in exactly what I had hoped according to the water test. However, I haven't been able to tell too much of a difference with the Hygro. polysperma. It's still losing the older leaves as it was before the increase. It is still growing, so that is definitely better than it was before I decreased the KNO3. The Hygro. corymbosa is still not doing too much at all. It appears to be just barely hanging on. A couple of the stems of Mayaca have made it to the surface already, and all of it seems to be doing good and growing. I'm not exactly sure if it is the right color of green to indicate good iron levels, but I think that is. I have ordered Lamotte potassium and iron kits, but they aren't here yet. I'm just too anal retentive to totally rely on plant growth. I know that I should, but I just like to know the facts. I'm going to keep fertilizing at the current levels for a little while longer to see what happens.

Andy
 
Lamotte potassium kit came today (ordered iron kit from another supplier because of cost, but isn't here yet). Tested the water and was quite surprised to find it somewhere between 30 and 40 ppm (not sure if I'm interpreting the results exactly right, but I just wanted a ballpark figure anyway). I actually was expecting it to be much less since I'm dosing KNO3 at only 25% the level that the recipe calls for. I'm a little confused as to exactly where it should be, since there are conflicting recommendations. However, Edward said that K should be 1.33:1.00 of NO3, so if that is true, my K should be around 29-30 ppm. Since mine is in that territory, I won't try to increase the K right now. The NO3 tested at 22 ppm and the PO4 tested at .45 ppm. I'm still not getting the results that I'd like to see with the Hygro. polysperma, but it is doing better. In fact, it is showing branching growth on it's own. In the past, it would just grow straight to the surface, and the only way I could get it to branch was to trim it back. It had grown all the way to the surface and was heading to the front of the tank, so I trimmed it and replanted the trimmings. I haven't had to do that in a really long time. I decided to increase the KH2PO4 dosage by 100% of the called for amount in the recipe this time. I'm guessing that will take the amount in the water up to about .6 ppm, but we'll have to wait and see. Hopefully that won't take the K up too much (I don't remember enough about molar chemistry to do the calculations, and in all reality, don't really care that much. I just hope it works).

Andy
 
How much CO2 do you use Andy?
Hello Edward,

I'm not exactly sure how to quantify the CO2 that the tank uses. I'll try to answer your question to the best of my ability, but let me know if you have other questions. I use a 20 lb. cylinder with this system: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3747+9933&pcatid=9933.

I have the needle valve set for quite a few bubbles per second counted at the bubble counter - I would guess probably 5-10.

I have this drop checker: http://http://cgi.ebay.com/Drop-Checker-CO2-pH-Test-Live-Plant-Aquarium-Tank_W0QQitemZ400085845351QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5d26f98567. It is filled with 4 degrees KH water that I mixed up using distilled water, baking soda, and lots of testing. As far as I know, it is the way that it is supposed to be. It always reads from light green to almost yellow.

I just swapped out the CO2 cylinder this past Monday, and it had first been installed on April 5th (about 7 months). That cylinder had been in use since November 12, 2008 (about 5 months).

I have the pH controller set to turn on the CO2 at approximately 6.8 and turn off at approximately 6.6. The GH is usually between 9 to 12 degrees, and the KH is usually around 8 to 9 degrees.

Like I said, I'm not sure if this is what you needed, but let me know if not. I'm really interested to get your input.

Thanks,

Andy
 
Hi
I think you are pushing your plants too much, pH 6.6 at 9 KH indicates 68 ppm of CO2. At this turbo rate plants are tall, long, unhealthy and susceptible to algae. If you lower your CO2 you give plants more time to develop into better quality plants. Of course changes must be done slowly over time, plants don't handle changes well. Go to pH 7.0, 24-27 ppm CO2 and see how plants respond. Is your high KH natural or you adding something to increase it?
 
Hello again Edward,

Thanks so much for addressing the issues that I'm facing. I apologize for not getting back sooner, but I had gone to Grand Cayman for a week to SCUBA dive.

However, I am somewhat confused by your recommendations. You mentioned that if my tank water has a pH of 6.6 and a KH of 9 that I would be looking at 68 ppm CO2. I went back and re-read the information on this relationship just to make sure that I wasn't mistaken, but it seems to me that you have not taken into consideration other buffers, such as phosphate, in the tank water that skew the relationship. That's why I put in the drop checker with 4 KH water. As I said before, it always indicates anywhere from light green to almost yellow. I have read where many other people no longer use drop checkers (or never even started), and simply watch their fish for signs of distress. I have never witnessed a single fish gasping at the surface as I have read that so many others have had happen when their CO2 levels went too high. I have intentionally checked at all times of the day just to make sure that the fish are always okay. The only reason that I bumped up the CO2 levels was to try and irradicate a large amount of BBA without having to use chemical warfare (Excel). I also haven't noticed my plants being tall, long, and unhealthy, although I'm probably not the best person to ask to judge proper plant growth. I just updated my journal with current photos, so maybe you could check them out and tell me what you think. The plants aren't really growing all that fast, but they seem like they are doing okay to me. The only exceptions are the Hygro species, which seem to be doing better since modifying the PPS pro recipe. In fact, I'd say that the polysperma is almost back to normal, and the corymbosa appears to be finally growing again. It's not that I don't want to lower the CO2 levels; I just question whether they really are too high.

To answer your question about the KH of my water, there are two reasons why it is high. The first is that I use well water, which when I measured the KH of it some time ago, I came up with a reading of 4 degrees KH and 5 degrees GH (for all I know it fluctuates, but I don't check it regularly). It also apparently has high levels of CO2 naturally occurring which causes the pH to be low (I have measured the pH coming out of the well to be anywhere from 5.7 to 6.4). This low pH was causing the copper pipes in my house to be eaten away, ruining all of the seals in the faucets, and leaving blue-green stains in the sinks. Therefore, several years ago I installed an acid neutralization system that all of the water for the whole house goes through. According to the company that I bought it from, it has two different materials in it: Calcite (which they said is calcium carbonate, CaCO3) and Corosex (which they said is magnesium oxide, MgO). Once the water goes through this system, it ends up with a neutral pH, 10 degrees KH, and 11 degrees GH. When I do water changes (which I do typically once a month, and change 30% to 50% of the water), I bypass the acid neutralization system and use straight well water. However, when I top off the tank, I don't bother doing this and just use the water that has gone through the system. I only top off the tank when it has evaporated down to the bottom of the trim at the top of the tank, and I usually only have to do this once a week to sometimes once every two weeks.

Now, for another update on the levels in the tank. As of November 29th, I had 22 ppm NO3, 1.05 ppm PO4, and about 20-30 ppm K (still not exactly sure what LaMotte means with this test, but if I had to bet, I would say that it would be 20, but I'm not positive). I'm pleased that the additional KH2PO4 raised the PO4, even though it actually went up more than I guessed that it would. Yesterday I decided to mix up some more macro solution, but this time I dropped the KNO3 to approximately 14% of the normal recipe, and again went with 200% of the normal amount of KH2PO4. I left everything else the same. I'm wondering if getting the NO3 down a little bit more will help the Hygros do even better.

Today the LaMotte iron test kit arrived. When I tested the water in my tank, I came up with a reading of .7 ppm!! I think that the Mayaca fluviatilis is doing okay, although I'm not positive if it is as "lush and green" as it should be. It's not really growing as fast as I was expecting it to, but that's actually okay with me. Here's a picture of it now (note that I haven't trimmed it after my vacation yet):
Plant Natural environment Botany Terrestrial plant Branch


Since the iron is so high, I decided to drop the amount dosed to only 33% of what the normal recipe calls for. I'm curious to see what that does. Ray-the-pilot - I know that you said that you had dropped to 40% of the normal dosage and that it had been working for you. Are you still dosing at that rate?

Thanks,

Andy
 
Yesterday I tested the water again, and found the NO3 to be 16 ppm, the PO4 was 1.0 ppm, the K was 20-30 ppm, and the Fe was .7 ppm. I'm glad to see that the NO3 came down in response to my further reduction of KNO3 in the recipe. As expected, the K and PO4 stayed steady, but I am puzzled as to why the Fe didn't drop after reducing the dosage by 50% for the last week. I decided to drop the dosage by another 50%, which now has me dosing the micros at only about 16% of what the normal recipe calls for. The Mayaca has been growing well, so I'll keep an eye on it to see if this dosage change causes it to do poorly.

Out of curiosity, I decided to check the validity of the LaMotte Iron test kit. I still had the reference solution that I had made up when checking the Seachem test kit, which was supposed to be .4 ppm. With the LaMotte kit I got a reading of .3 ppm (which is way better than the .06 ppm that the Seachem one came up with). Considering that I'm not exactly sure if I mixed up the reference solution absolutely perfectly, I'm okay with that result.

Andy
 
Time for another update. This time I'm not exactly sure how to interpret the results. The reason is because I performed a waterchange (approximately 30-50%) on December 13th, so that would have diluted the amounts in the column. None-the-less, here are the results of testing this evening: NO3 - 10 ppm, PO4 - .5 ppm, Fe - .2 ppm, and K - 25-30 ppm.

I'm happy with the results, but had a very difficult time figuring out how I should alter the ferts (if at all). I finally decided to set the macro up with 15% of the normal recipe amount of KNO3 (it had been at 14%, mainly changed it for ease of measuring), and continued with the 200% of KH2PO4. I also left the micro dosing at the same level that I had adjusted it to before, which was only 16% of the normal amount. The Mayaca is still doing well (has been growing and pearling nicely), so I think that it is happy with the iron levels. I'll be sure and test again in about a week or so, but won't do anything else drastic to the tank so I can see what, if anything, these dosing rates do to the levels in the tank.

On a side note, I'm a little confused as to what levels I should be targeting. I have researched and found differing figures in several locations.

For instance, I found that Tom Barr says nitrate should be 5-10 ppm, Edward says 5-20 ppm, and the Fertilator says 10-20 ppm. So I'm aiming for around 10 feeling that I am satisfying all of them.

For phosphate, Tom Barr says .2-.5 ppm, Edward says .1-1 ppm, and the Fertilator says .5-2 ppm. I figure if I can keep it at .5 then maybe I'll be okay.

Iron, according to Tom Barr, should be .2-.7+ ppm, Edward says impossible to test, and the Fertilator says .1 ppm. I'm at a loss here as to what to try and aim for, but I'm thinking more towards the low end of the scale, so if I can keep it around .2 then I'm hoping that it will be okay.

Potassium should be 20-30 ppm according to Tom Barr, a ratio of 1.33 K to 1.00 NO3 according to Edward, and the Fertilator says 10-20 ppm. This is another one that doesn't really match up, so I'm not really sure what to do. Besides, unless I start adding phophate with something other than KH2PO4, it seems to me that I won't be able to get the potassium down (although I don't know how to do all of the mathematical chemistry calculations, but it just seems logical to me).

Suggestions, anyone?

Andy
 
Andy,

You are so careful and dedicated to get this right. I wish people forgot the test kits, the numbers, the preocupation with concentrations. Best advice you got so far was to get the Mayaca as an indicator.

Here are a few things that could give you an idea of how things could be different:

1. If you have a good amount of Nitrate and Phosphate in your tank any time algae finds a way to spread it get all over. In a tank with 15N and 1P the algae spread much more then in a tank that has 1.5N and 0.1P. If you worry that a "lean" tank is demanding to maintain you are completely wrong.

2. Light - in the last 3 pages I didn't see a single reference to light. Maybe I missed it. Manipulating the light directly affects how the plants store food and how the algae spreads or shrinks.

3. If your tank is indeed stable you can leave it be for literally weeks on end. Neglect it for a month if you want and when you return the tank will be fine. What do you think will happen to your tank as you have it now if you leave it unattended for a month?

I could go on. My point is to give you a perspective. With the dedication and experience that you already have you can run a tank "free style" and really enjoy the beauty of it. Not the chemistry.

--Nikolay
 
Hey Nikolay,

Thanks so much for responding and offering advice. I'd like to respond to several of your points.

I wish people forgot the test kits, the numbers, the preocupation with concentrations. Best advice you got so far was to get the Mayaca as an indicator.
Believe me, I don't test because I find great enjoyment in it. In my first post, I mentioned that I switched to PPS pro specifically so I wouldn't have to test anymore. I had been testing a lot, and was in search of a method that would allow me to be able to stop. Unfortunately, after several months of using PPS pro and not testing, my tank began to do poorly. The primary indicator to this was my Hygro species were dieing. However, I had no idea as to why. Fortunately, I read this thread started by Diana Walstad that tipped me off that high nitrates could harm plants. All of my posts since then have been aimed at trying to figure out what the ideal concentrations of fertilizers are for my specific tank. I have noticed that there are many people that seem to be able to just look at a tank and can tell what needs to be done. I, however, don't feel that I have that ability. For example, let me give you an analogy that I think compares this trait well. My late Grandma used to make a wonderful persimmon pudding that I truly loved to eat. I would watch her prepare it, and noticed that she didn't use a recipe at all. She would just dump the various ingredients into a bowl without measuring them, totally from memory, and it always turned out wonderful. One day I asked her if I could measure the ingredients as she went so I could write down the recipe, and she obliged (I'm so glad that I did that). Now I can make her persimmon pudding using the recipe, but I have to carefully measure out the ingredients, and if I didn't have the recipe, you could forget about me being successful. I feel the same way about growing plants in my aquarium. As long as I have a "recipe" to go by, I will probably do okay. Without it, and it is very likely that I will fail.

If you worry that a "lean" tank is demanding to maintain you are completely wrong.
Actually, I'm just trying to get everything set up the way that it is suggested to me. If the consensus is to set it up "lean", then that's what I will do.

Light - in the last 3 pages I didn't see a single reference to light.
That is because I am trying to alter the ferts for my tank, not alter the tank for the ferts. Since you asked though, I have 220 watts of VHO T12 fluorescent (3 wpg). It seems to me that without expensive equipment, it is pretty much impossible for any of us to be able to accurately measure our light output and compare to each other, which makes the whole wpg thing a rough guess. On top of that, my bulbs are old, so I know that the output is even less than normal. However, I would prefer to continue to use them and just change the ferts rather than buy more equipment.

If your tank is indeed stable you can leave it be for literally weeks on end. Neglect it for a month if you want and when you return the tank will be fine. What do you think will happen to your tank as you have it now if you leave it unattended for a month?
Wow. Are you saying that my tank should be it's own little ecosystem that requires no input? No food or ferts, and the fish and plants should be perfectly fine? I somewhat understand that with the El Natural style that you should be able to just feed the fish and that if everything is set up correctly, that you would basically have a little ecosystem with little effort. I have a high-tech tank, and I can't hardly believe that if I didn't add ferts to the tank that it would be okay after a month. However, the reason that I am doing all of this testing is so I can determine approximately what my tank uses, so I can then dose it with that amount. Since I have an infusion pump handling my fertilization for me, my goal is that I will be able to come up with the right recipe for me, load up the infusion pump with a month's worth of ferts, and then not have to test regularly. In a perfect world, after a month the tank would be stable and the levels would still be the same. We'll see if I can achieve that or not.

I could go on. My point is to give you a perspective. With the dedication and experience that you already have you can run a tank "free style" and really enjoy the beauty of it. Not the chemistry.
Actually, I don't really mind the chemistry. It is quite interesting to me. But like I said before, I am trying to get to the point where I don't have to test all the time. I may never get there, but I sure am trying.

Thanks again,

Andy
 
The last time that I updated how my tank is doing with PPS pro, I mentioned that I wouldn't do anything major that might affect the test results. Well, I did anyway. On December 22nd I added ten new species of plants that were given to me by jeremy1, and also removed some of my plants to make room for the new ones. I'm not sure how much if any this will affect the nutrient uptake, but what's done is done so we'll just have to wait and see. Also, I went out of town for a few days over Christmas, so the fish didn't get fed any during that time. I'm also not sure how much that will affect the test results. Never-the-less, I performed a LOT of water testing on January 3rd, but am just now getting around to posting the results (been really busy at work - putting in lots of twelve hour days).

First-of-all, a few days before doing the testing I opened up the hood to feed the fish and was greeted with an all too familiar but very unwelcome smell. Believe it or not, I used to have such a terrible time with cyanobacteria (BGA) back in the nineties that I can actually smell it in the water! I immediately started looking for it and found a tiny little bit (about as much as a pencil eraser) on some of the Cabomba right on the growing tip near the surface. I removed it and couldn't find anymore. This worried me that I might have gotten the nitrate levels down too low. Upon checking it I found it to be 8.5 ppm. This makes me think that I might ought to aim for the 10-20 ppm range, since I definitely don't want this stuff to return (it almost made me leave the hobby). I've since increased the nitrates again and the smell and BGA is gone.

The phosphate test gave me a result of 1.5 ppm, but I'm not sure if I can trust that reading. The reason is because when I added the first drop of reagent from the Seachem kit, I noticed that it was actually the last drop in the bottle. I am not totally convinced that the exact amount made it into the water sample, so the reading might be wrong. Another reason why I think that is because I've been studying the plant deficiencies charts, and the Hygro. polysperma still isn't doing as well as is should, and to me it really looks to match the pictures of a phosphate deficiency. As I mentioned before, I'm still not really sure what level to target, but until I get another way to test it, I don't want to fool with the levels too much. I'm going to order new reagents for my old LaMotte phosphate test kit (I meant to do it this week but got too busy at work) and will see what kind of levels it detects. I may increase the amount of KH2PO4 even more than I have been, but I'm not sure yet.

The iron tested at .2 ppm just like last time, and the Mayaca fluviatilis is growing like a weed. My guess is that the Fe levels are okay. Here are some pictures of the Mayaca taken on January 4th:

Plant Botany Terrestrial plant Organism Wood

Plant Leaf Natural environment Branch Botany

Green Plant Light Botany Water


I've been trimming and replanting, but I think for the first time I'm going to have more trimmings than I know what to do with. I think I'm going to call the LFS and see if they can use any.

The potassium tested to be about 30-35 ppm. Last time I mentioned that I wasn't sure what I was going to be able to do if the potassium levels were actually too high. However, later I remembered that one of the main PPS pro ingredients is potassium sulfate. After doing some more research, it appears that this is added mainly for the potassium and not so much for the sulfur. Therefore, my guess is that I could reduce the K2SO4 if I need to get the potassium levels down. I'll have to think more about that later.

After doing lots of research here on APC, I decided that I would like to know what the Calcium and Magnesium levels are in my tank, my well water, and my tap water (after going through the acid neutralization tank that I mentioned earlier in a previous post). I bought a LaMotte Total Hardness/Calcium Hardness test kit so I could find these levels out. I have been wondering if I really need to be adding the Epsom Salt (Magnesium Sulfate Heptahydrate). I've been using an Aquarium Pharmaceuticals GH/KH test kit, so I decided to test with both kits so I could compare the readings. I tested the water in the tank, the water coming straight out of my well, and the water coming out of the tap. Here are the results:

Tank water - LaMotte kit Total hardness, 160 ppm (9 degrees); Calcium hardness, 88 ppm; Magnesium hardness, 72 ppm - API kit GH 11 degrees

Well water - LaMotte kit Total hardness, 100 ppm (5.6 degrees); Calcium hardness, 64 ppm; Magnesium hardness, 36 ppm - API kit GH 6 degrees

Tap water - LaMotte kit Total hardness, 164 ppm (9.2 degrees); Calcium hardness, 112 ppm; Magnesium hardness, 52 ppm - API kit GH 8 degrees

It appears to me that with the well water and tap water, the LaMotte and API kits aren't too far off from each other when it comes to the Total/GH hardness, but with the tank water they aren't that close. I actually went back and did those tests again since I thought that I might have made a mistake, and still came up with the same results. I have been researching here on APC until I'm cross-eyed, and I can't find anything that provides an answer as to whether there might be some explanation for this.

As I said before, the reason that I did all of this testing was because I wanted to know the ratio of Ca to Mg, which I found to be at 1.2:1. After lots more research, it seems that it should actually be somewhere around 3:1 to 4:1. Unfortunately, the information is spread out over many posts and I sometimes wonder if what I'm reading is really all that useful. I remember reading a post about how if various different elements ratios (Ca, Mg, N, & K, maybe? ](*,)) are off then you will get deficiency symptoms in the plants, even if it appears that you have enough of everything, but I can't find it again to save my life. Regardless, I think that I need to reduce (if not stop) the amount of Epsom Salt that I dose since it appears to me that I have more than enough Magnesium. In fact, I'm curious if having an excess of Mg might be causing other nutrients to not be taken up by the plants.

While testing all of this water, I also tested the KH using the API kit, so here are the results:

Tank water - 7 degrees KH

Well water - 5 degrees KH

Tap water - 7 degrees KH

I'm not sure if I should get an alkalinity kit from LaMotte or just stick with my API kit.

After all of this testing, I decided to go back with the dosing that I had been doing before I tried to get the nitrates down further. I added the Macro solution to the infusion pump that has only 25% of the KNO3 that the recipe calls for, but with 200% of the KH2PO4, but when I run out of it I think I will tweak the ratios some more (primarily the Epsom Salt).

Andy
 
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