[Manwithnofish]

Original objective: 70 Gal. planted tank with community fish. - All items purchased starting in Feb. 2008.

Aquarium: 70 g. Oceanic glass, measures 36" wide, 18" deep (front to back), 25" ht.

Substrate: equal mixture of Flourite and Eco-Complete, approximately 4" deep.

Water: well water. Water hardness kH ranges from 6 - 8 drops or 107.4 - 143.2. gH ranges from 12 - 14 drops or 214 - 250. pH runs from 7.2 to 7.6.

Plants: several varieties of fast growing plants for bright lights.

Fish: approximately 38 small (tetras, danios, rasbora, etc), includes two (2") clown loaches and two larger (4") fish (red tail shark and flying fox).

Artifacts: - two softball size rocks and two pieces of wood.

Light System: Tek-Light system - (4) T5-HO 6K Midday 39 w bulbs purchased in February. Two separate light switches on separate timers (2 bulbs each). I now burn only 2 bulbs from 8:00 am to 7:00 pm. I was burning them from 7:00 am to 7:30 pm and the other 2 bulbs for about 3 hours mid day.

Heater: Azoo Titanium 300w heater

Filter: Fluval 405 canister filter.

CO2 system: 10 lb tank (source beverage quality), regulator, needle valve and Aqua Medic Reactor 500. Was running same as lights. Not in use at this time due to problems with algae.

Chemical Ferts: Was following the recommendation on this forum. Dosing 3 times a week (¼ tsp Plantex CSM+B, ¼ tsp KH2PO4 (Mono Potassium Phosphate, and ¾ tsp Potassium Nitrate 13.5-0-46.2). Dry ingredients were added to a cup of water and poured into the tank. This was followed by a 50% water change at end of week. The ferts are from http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/Store.php. The labels read as follows:
KH2PO4 - To create a phosphorous solution comparable to the bottle products on the market add 1 level tsp Phosphate and 1 rounded ¼ tsp Potassium Sulfate to 1 liter distilled H2O. This will result in a solution of ~0.3% available P205 and ~0.2% K2SO4.
Potassium Nitrate - Sears Conlin PMDD Formula (1 tbl Plantex CSM, 1 tbl MgSO4+7H2O, 2 tbl K2SO4, 1 tbl KNO3)
Plantex CSM+B - See website above for ingredients / quantities.

Problem: After starting CO2 and ferts, algae took over entire tank, so I shut it down. Still fighting algae. Dosing Seachem Flourish occasionally to combat algae.

 

[Manwithnofish]

2. Run all 4 lights for 8 hours per day. With only 2 bulbs running you are not giving your plants enough light to compete with algae. All 4 would be about 2.2 wpg which is still on the lower side of the scale, medium light.

I don't believe wpg means anything. That was all based on the older florescent bulbs. Based on the research I have already done with regard to lights, the T5-HO output is approx. 3000 lumins / bulb times 4 equals 12,000 lumins divided by 648 sq.in. gives me 18.5 lumins / sq.in, which puts it in the "High" to "Very High" light range or equivalent to somewhere between 3 to 4 wpg based on the old tubes.

I turned on the CO2 until my drop check dKH solution turned green and increased the lights when I started dosing. After waiting 3 weeks and the algae took off and I shut it down.

If I may ask, how similar is your setup to what I posted? Just keeping a referrence...

 

[Manwithnofish]

From Jeff5614: You might think about lowering your lighting period to 8 hours for now and increasing it as your plants fill in. As far as the algae, clean out as much as you can and any plants that are affected you may want to replace.

My plants are growing very well...I have to trim and remove quite a bit in my fight against the algae. It isn't possible to clear the algae out / off everything without removing everything...which I hope I won't have to do. I'd like to bounce things off you because we both have the T5-HO lights which might prove to be very significant in combating this evil creature. Thanks for the great link on Tom Barr's thread.

From Dogdoc: I would ditch that reactor and either build an inline Rex-type or get an AM 1000. (and) Increase flow throughout the tank. Get at least one more large canister. Another fluval or XP3 or XP4, Eheim 2217 or 2028 would be good ones to look at. Use one of the canisters to power your CO2 reactor. You may want to add a powerhead or Koralia type pump too. I have 2 XP3s and a Koralia 2, and a powerhead moving water around my tank.

Curious about ditching the reactor? It wasn't cheap and seems to be as good as most internal type reactors. Do you feel this device is just too inefficient? I'm not sure I could fit another Fluval 405 type filter in my tank or my cabinet. I'm just not ready for that. I do appreciate the advice, I'm was hoping to solve this without more stuff to have to clean and maintain.

Thanks Jmontee and Dogdoc for the system setup specs. Someone suggested that I might have better success combating problems if I find someone with a very similar system. Perhaps they went down the same path I'm on now and hopefully they found a solution that did not involve throwing out what I have purchased and starting over. Seem logical to me.

Not sure on the exact types of algae. I have bushy little (dark) tuffs that grow on rocks and edges of leaves (but this is not too bad). The other is hair algae I think...green stringy...and yet another that is this weird bright florescent green slimy kind of stuff that clings to objects. I probably have species that have not yet been classified.

 

[Manwithnofish]

Here's some additional info: I had the wrong check valve in line on my CO2 system. It was made apparently for Calcium reactor systems for salt water. The valve (spring) was too hefty to overcome resulting in a build up of pressure before it would open. Therefore my CO2 was being released in strong spurts and then building up pressure again. I have a replacement already but waiting for a new bubble counter (JBJ cracked).

I noticed in the diagram that came with my new Dennerle check valve that it is in line between the regulator-needle valve and the bubble counter. I think in my first failed attemp, I had the check valve between the bubble counter and the CO2 reactor. Does it matter where I put the check valve?

 

[Manwithnofish]

I'm not sure on the water flow thing....I mean I have some very thick and densely planted areas (big Amazon swords) that may make water flow at the bottom of the tank difficult. My tank is 25" deep. I could try placing a power head down lower some where. I just feel that every week I have to take so many things out of the tank and break them all down to clean them. I hate to add any thing else to the tank. But then again, if I can solve this problem maybe I won't be having to clean it each week.

 

[Manwithnofish]

Since the algae disaster, I've been having to clean everything every week. This includes the canister filter and everything in the tank. I pull out the heater, the AM500 reactor, and the intake and output spouts from the filter. This has been necessary because the algae is breaking free in clumps and clogging up everything. I've also removed plants and planted new ones which has generated a lot of silt from the substrate during the water change.

I think I have to take this one step at a time or it will just get too confusing. I'm not going to solve this in one day. So my take away from this will be to try to increase circulation, get CO2 and fert going again and see where it goes.

One last question for now. If I get the CO2 / fert levels where they should be, and the plants grow as people talk about, will that not make the algae receed, or do I have to get rid of it first before I go back to the CO2 & dosing?

 

[Manwithnofish]

It is possible to get differing opinions and then draw your own conclusions! One of you doesn't believe in the watts per galon rule

Yep, that's me. And I've done just exactly what you suggested. You can go with the watt per gallon rule. I'll go with Tom Barr's research on this one. So, I've drawn my own conclusion on this. Maybe, your just afraid to admit that you are wrong Robert.

 

[Manwithnofish]

I had one of these Hagen Elite Mini Underwater filters, so I added it near the bottom of the tank.

http://www.petco.com/Shop/Product.aspx?sku=994901

Will this work, or is it too little?

 

[Manwithnofish]

This makes me sad.

 

[Manwithnofish]

Following recommendations from the thread:

Water Flow - I removed the Hagen Elite Mini filter (too little) and replaced it with a new HK-2. Much better flow in the tank. This was a common suggestion, so I did that. Still not ready to add another canister filter.

Algae - I also cleaned the tank and removed as much algae as possible. Took out the rocks and wood and soaked them in bleach water to kill the algae (then did multiple rinses). Pruned and/or removed plants with heavy algae.

CO2 - Replaced my check valve with the correct one and turned the CO2 back on. Not using a bubble counter.

Ferts - not yet!

Things are looking better, but then they always do after I do a major clean up, prune and rearrange the plants and sit back and enjoy for about 5 days....then the algae comes back....

 

[Manwithnofish]

I'm trying to get the CO2 rate established first. Don't have a bubble counter, just going by the drop checker. Came home from work today, after running CO2 for second day (turned it off last night) and I found drop checker on the yellow green side...definitely delivering CO2. Maybe too much? I did give the plants Flourish yesterday. I wanted to get the CO2 levels up (which I figured could take a day or two) then drop in the dry ferts which I figure would be instant.

Fish are not showing signs of stress. Plants were thinned & pruned pretty hard on this last cleaning..remaining plants are a mixture of well established and some new. Did not see any pearling from plants like I did before! What do you make of this?

Not running full lights...still just 2 bulbs T5-HO 39w each.

Edit: I've looked at the Fertilator, Chuck's calculator, and this thread and they are all different. I don't have the foggest idea of how much ferts to add. All I have is the KNO3 and the KH2PO4 (plus the Plantex).

 

[Manwithnofish]

From the fertilator: for your 70:
add 3/4tsp of KNO3; about 1/8tsp of KH2PO4 at water change and half as much at midweek. The above will give you about 10ppm NO3 and 2ppm PO4 at full dose and half as much at the half dose. Dose your micros 2-3X a week when not dosing your macros.

Well I'm trying to make sense of all this. What I was pointing out is that your recommendation is different from what's recommended under the EI posts (both the one above and the APC's Fertilizer subforum sticky), as well as Chuck's. I mean these are hughly different schemes and yet I assume they all work? People on this forum were talking like if I deviated from the "regime" even minutely, it would lead to disaster (which is what I had, which is what prompty them to come to the conclusion that I obviously should not be deviating from this strick regime)...does any one understand all this?

Perhaps it's more that there are just hundreds of ways that this works depending on each individuals unique parameters and everybody "stumbles" onto the one that works for them? If so, I'll never get there by trying to do what everyone else does (because everyone says to do something quite differently)....I'll just have to find my own unique combination by trial and error. That's not to say thay I don't appreciate the help and advice (even if I can't seem to make it work for me).

Incidentally, I lost one rasbora this morning...don't know if it was related to turning back on the CO2, but it does seem that I lose fish everytime I turn it back on.

So, I got my bubble counter today and set it up at 2 bps. Maybe I'll start trying your dosing regime tomorrow.

Signs should be required by law on all aquariums that says "caution, this can lead to a state of confusion, which could lead to drug use (for you and your fish)"

 

[Manwithnofish]

Ok today was day 3 with CO2 back on. Today I also started with all 4 bulbs turned on and I add ferts. KNO3 3/4 tsp and KH2PO4 1/8 tsp. I'll add half that amount on Friday and then do the water change on Sunday. I noticed that my drop checker was greenish yellow...definitely delivering CO2. Still NOT seeing any pearling going on as I did before ....I reduced the plant mass via pruning so maybe that's the explanation. So far, the algae doesn't show a sign of anothe onslaught.

Should I retire? Would I succeed with this if I devoted all my time to this?

 

[Manwithnofish]

End of day 5. Still not seeing a "significant" response from the plants. Fish seem to be doing ok. Drop checker still greenish yellow. Some pearling now visible. Algae...???? maybe ready to rebloom.

Ok, if this works...I think the reduced fert scheme is a big contributor to the success....if it fails, I'm blaming the ferts.

How long can I keep this thread alive, if I'm the only contributing editor? Maybe I can have my own private thread...Maybe I can take over the forum and drive everybody off? Mine...ALL MINE...:Cry:

 

[Manwithnofish]

Latte, give me time to digest and compare our systems. We do have some interesting comparisons.

For now, I need to add some information and see if I can get some advice.

Since, I've been back on CO2, ferts, etc, I just measured my kH and pH at the end of the day with max photosynthesis, pearling, activity. My kH is now 10!...it's gone up from 7 and my pH is 6.6 which is down from 7.4. So it's obvious that I'm getting a lot of CO2 in the tank, but why would kH go up?

Fish are showing no sign of stress.
Drop checker is greenish yellow.
Algae is better.
Plants are growing.
Maybe my Master test kit and "cards" are way off?

 

[Manwithnofish]

How did we jump to high phosphates?

 

[Manwithnofish]

From my post on a different forum it was suggested that the increased acidity my be reacting with my river rocks to increase the kH. Most logical explaination thus far, but as long as I'm doing 50+% wc weekly it shouldn't become an issue.

Latte, before I started using ferts and CO2, I only ran 2 of the 4 39w T5-HOs and I was somewhat successful. This covered from Feb. to about early Oct. Plants grew very well, but I was constantly having reoccuring bouts with algae. I had already purchase my CO2 equipment back in the spring but it took me 6 months to find a supplier who would fill MY tank (most wanted to swap tanks like propane dealers). My first attempt with the CO2 and ferts was disasterous for several reasons. Primary among those were, lack of circulation, inconsist dosing of both CO2 and ferts. I didn't initially have the correct check valve or a bubble counter and so I didn't know how much CO2 I was injecting. Now I have the right equipment and feel much better about that. I've also changed the fert scheme just a little, cutting it back somewhat from the EI plan. I think I'm getting better results.

As for our similarities, I think we have some striking differences right now. The amount of filter/flow and the light being the two biggest, along with the water change amounts.

As for the algae eaters, they are no match for the amount of algae I have had to battle. I have added 4 Corys recently and I think they are helping get excess food off the bottom. I had an algae growing on the substrate like grass and spreading throughout the entire tank. I removed almost all of that manually. If I could find a living creature that could eat that much algae it would be like "shock & aw" in the fish kingdom. ound:

It seems that my situation has improved or atleast stablized for now. My next thoughts are that I would like to get the AquaMedic 500 reactor out of the tank and replace it with the Rex G. DIY model. Along with that, I want to get the heater out of the tank and replace it with the inline heater. Both of these would be done in conjunction with adding another filter to drive them. Not sure if I'm ready for this yet, as I don't know how to size the filter to drive the CO2 reactor. At any rate, I think the additional filter will go a long way toward helping as well. I'm just not sure if I will do any of this yet though.

 

[Manwithnofish]

I have a large SAE and ottos, but again they don't stand a chance against all the algae that I get when everything gets out of balance and BOOM...it's so much algae, it scares the ****ens out of my algae eaters.

But....I'm not having that problem. Things are looking very positive. Now I just have to figure out how to control these out-of-control plants that are growing inches/day. My Cabomba furcata has shot to the top of the tank and become a stem with no leaves except one head on the top.

Still undecided about the DIY external CO2 reactor and inline heater. Scares me to have cut tubing junctions outside the tank as potential sources of major tank drainage. If the tubing came loose from the inline heater or the CO2 reactor, it would ciphen the tank dry. The damage to the house flooring system would be a major disaster. If I came home one day and found water everywhere, that would be the end of me ever having aquariums.

Just read a thread that says a lot of negative feedback received about Hydor inline heaters....think I'll stick with in the tank Stealth.

 

[Manwithnofish]

What's happening now? Replaced my Zeo-Carb filter bags in the Fluval. Reduced the ferts (KNO3 & KH2PO4) a smidgen. Stopped the Plantex and went with the Flourish.

Notice that the Algae is making a come back. Mostly growing as thick tuffs (like grass) on the substrate. Plants are so dense, it's difficult to clean food from the root/base of plants.

Some current pictures....

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii288/manwithnofish/IMG_0321.jpg

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii288/manwithnofish/IMG_0323.jpg

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii288/manwithnofish/IMG_0325.jpg