Looking for Someone with Similar Setup
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Manwithnofish, I feel your frustrations from the various threads you have posted on this subject! FWIW, here's another 2 cents worth of adivce/info.
Some observations: you have well water, and it is fairly hard. I also have well water and it is a little harder than yours (kh9-10, gh12-13). From lots of reading of folks experiences and from the info on this thread, let me tell you it is usually more difficult to be totally algae free with harder water than with softer water. Also dosing via EI will typically work better than dosing via PPS with hard waters.
So, clean out manually as much as possible. If you uproot plants, gravel vac the area well. Re-plant heavily, with lots of fast growers. Do a major water change - 60-70%. Calculate from the fertilator how much to add to your tank to achieve 10ppm NO3 and 2ppm PO4. Add an equivalent size spoon of potassium (K) as you add NO3. (For example, if you're adding 1/2tsp of KNO3 add 1/2tsp of K2SO4). If your hard water is due to limestone, you will need to add Mg (Epsom salt from drugstore). Mid week, add half as much of NO3 and PO4 as you added at the water change, but do not add any more potassium or magnesium. Feed your fish well. Add micros 3x a week (I add 2ml Flourish and 1ml of iron chelate to my 50's. You have CSM and I've never used that one). Set up your CO2 so that you will have 25ppm levels when your lights are on, and run it 24/7.
If you don't have any, get some algae eaters. For your 70, I'd get 2-3 SAE's and an equal number of ottos. SAE's can be a pita, but from personal experience, if I don't have them, I start to see bits of BBA showing up in my tanks. It's one of the pitas of harder water. With the sae's there, no trace. Just know you can't have moss there - it will become their own personal salad bar if you try to grow some.
Run your lighting 8-9 hours per day, no midday burst, no rest period. Just run it straight. Your full lighting is around 2.2wpg, which, whether you believe in wpg rules or not, is moderate lighting.
Religiously do 50% water changes weekly, and wipe your glass down at that time.
Be patient. My waters are similar, and my lighting is similar to yours, though my tanks are a little smaller (50's).
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Good luck. HTH!
Some observations: you have well water, and it is fairly hard. I also have well water and it is a little harder than yours (kh9-10, gh12-13). From lots of reading of folks experiences and from the info on this thread, let me tell you it is usually more difficult to be totally algae free with harder water than with softer water. Also dosing via EI will typically work better than dosing via PPS with hard waters.
So, clean out manually as much as possible. If you uproot plants, gravel vac the area well. Re-plant heavily, with lots of fast growers. Do a major water change - 60-70%. Calculate from the fertilator how much to add to your tank to achieve 10ppm NO3 and 2ppm PO4. Add an equivalent size spoon of potassium (K) as you add NO3. (For example, if you're adding 1/2tsp of KNO3 add 1/2tsp of K2SO4). If your hard water is due to limestone, you will need to add Mg (Epsom salt from drugstore). Mid week, add half as much of NO3 and PO4 as you added at the water change, but do not add any more potassium or magnesium. Feed your fish well. Add micros 3x a week (I add 2ml Flourish and 1ml of iron chelate to my 50's. You have CSM and I've never used that one). Set up your CO2 so that you will have 25ppm levels when your lights are on, and run it 24/7.
If you don't have any, get some algae eaters. For your 70, I'd get 2-3 SAE's and an equal number of ottos. SAE's can be a pita, but from personal experience, if I don't have them, I start to see bits of BBA showing up in my tanks. It's one of the pitas of harder water. With the sae's there, no trace. Just know you can't have moss there - it will become their own personal salad bar if you try to grow some.
Run your lighting 8-9 hours per day, no midday burst, no rest period. Just run it straight. Your full lighting is around 2.2wpg, which, whether you believe in wpg rules or not, is moderate lighting.
Religiously do 50% water changes weekly, and wipe your glass down at that time.
Be patient. My waters are similar, and my lighting is similar to yours, though my tanks are a little smaller (50's).
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Good luck. HTH!
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252 Posts
This makes me sad.
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252 Posts
Following recommendations from the thread:
Water Flow - I removed the Hagen Elite Mini filter (too little) and replaced it with a new HK-2. Much better flow in the tank. This was a common suggestion, so I did that. Still not ready to add another canister filter.
Algae - I also cleaned the tank and removed as much algae as possible. Took out the rocks and wood and soaked them in bleach water to kill the algae (then did multiple rinses). Pruned and/or removed plants with heavy algae.
CO2 - Replaced my check valve with the correct one and turned the CO2 back on. Not using a bubble counter.
Ferts - not yet!
Things are looking better, but then they always do after I do a major clean up, prune and rearrange the plants and sit back and enjoy for about 5 days....then the algae comes back....
Water Flow - I removed the Hagen Elite Mini filter (too little) and replaced it with a new HK-2. Much better flow in the tank. This was a common suggestion, so I did that. Still not ready to add another canister filter.
Algae - I also cleaned the tank and removed as much algae as possible. Took out the rocks and wood and soaked them in bleach water to kill the algae (then did multiple rinses). Pruned and/or removed plants with heavy algae.
CO2 - Replaced my check valve with the correct one and turned the CO2 back on. Not using a bubble counter.
Ferts - not yet!
Things are looking better, but then they always do after I do a major clean up, prune and rearrange the plants and sit back and enjoy for about 5 days....then the algae comes back....
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252 Posts
I'm trying to get the CO2 rate established first. Don't have a bubble counter, just going by the drop checker. Came home from work today, after running CO2 for second day (turned it off last night) and I found drop checker on the yellow green side...definitely delivering CO2. Maybe too much? I did give the plants Flourish yesterday. I wanted to get the CO2 levels up (which I figured could take a day or two) then drop in the dry ferts which I figure would be instant.
Fish are not showing signs of stress. Plants were thinned & pruned pretty hard on this last cleaning..remaining plants are a mixture of well established and some new. Did not see any pearling from plants like I did before! What do you make of this?
Not running full lights...still just 2 bulbs T5-HO 39w each.
Edit: I've looked at the Fertilator, Chuck's calculator, and this thread and they are all different. I don't have the foggest idea of how much ferts to add. All I have is the KNO3 and the KH2PO4 (plus the Plantex).
Fish are not showing signs of stress. Plants were thinned & pruned pretty hard on this last cleaning..remaining plants are a mixture of well established and some new. Did not see any pearling from plants like I did before! What do you make of this?
Not running full lights...still just 2 bulbs T5-HO 39w each.
Edit: I've looked at the Fertilator, Chuck's calculator, and this thread and they are all different. I don't have the foggest idea of how much ferts to add. All I have is the KNO3 and the KH2PO4 (plus the Plantex).
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From the fertilator: for your 70:
add 3/4tsp of KNO3; about 1/8tsp of KH2PO4 at water change and half as much at midweek. The above will give you about 10ppm NO3 and 2ppm PO4 at full dose and half as much at the half dose. Dose your micros 2-3X a week when not dosing your macros.
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252 Posts
Well I'm trying to make sense of all this. What I was pointing out is that your recommendation is different from what's recommended under the EI posts (both the one above and the APC's Fertilizer subforum sticky), as well as Chuck's. I mean these are hughly different schemes and yet I assume they all work? People on this forum were talking like if I deviated from the "regime" even minutely, it would lead to disaster (which is what I had, which is what prompty them to come to the conclusion that I obviously should not be deviating from this strick regime)...does any one understand all this?
Perhaps it's more that there are just hundreds of ways that this works depending on each individuals unique parameters and everybody "stumbles" onto the one that works for them? If so, I'll never get there by trying to do what everyone else does (because everyone says to do something quite differently)....I'll just have to find my own unique combination by trial and error. That's not to say thay I don't appreciate the help and advice (even if I can't seem to make it work for me).
Incidentally, I lost one rasbora this morning...don't know if it was related to turning back on the CO2, but it does seem that I lose fish everytime I turn it back on.
So, I got my bubble counter today and set it up at 2 bps. Maybe I'll start trying your dosing regime tomorrow.
Signs should be required by law on all aquariums that says "caution, this can lead to a state of confusion, which could lead to drug use (for you and your fish)"
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There are indeed more than one road to go down. But there are generalizations which can be made, depending on the road you choose.
For example: If you go 'el natural', you don't fertilize, only top off. If you go high tech, you need to fertilize. High light = better chance of algae unless you stay on top of nutrients. Etc...
I started out dosing strictly EI as recommended, then one day I decided to test my nitrate levels and they were around 80ppm. That's when I decided to use my head and realize that 'one size does NOT fit all'.
But there are generalizations which can be made, depending on the road you choose. For example: If you go 'el natural', you don't fertilize, only top off. If you go high tech, you need to fertilize. High light = better chance of algae unless you stay on top of nutrients. Etc...
I started out dosing strictly EI as recommended, then one day I decided to test my nitrate levels and they were around 80ppm. That's when I decided to use my head and realize that 'one size does NOT fit all'.
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Ok today was day 3 with CO2 back on. Today I also started with all 4 bulbs turned on and I add ferts. KNO3 3/4 tsp and KH2PO4 1/8 tsp. I'll add half that amount on Friday and then do the water change on Sunday. I noticed that my drop checker was greenish yellow...definitely delivering CO2. Still NOT seeing any pearling going on as I did before ....I reduced the plant mass via pruning so maybe that's the explanation. So far, the algae doesn't show a sign of anothe onslaught.
Should I retire? Would I succeed with this if I devoted all my time to this?
Should I retire? Would I succeed with this if I devoted all my time to this?
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252 Posts
End of day 5. Still not seeing a "significant" response from the plants. Fish seem to be doing ok. Drop checker still greenish yellow. Some pearling now visible. Algae...???? maybe ready to rebloom.
Ok, if this works...I think the reduced fert scheme is a big contributor to the success....if it fails, I'm blaming the ferts.
How long can I keep this thread alive, if I'm the only contributing editor? Maybe I can have my own private thread...Maybe I can take over the forum and drive everybody off? Mine...ALL MINE...:Cry:
Ok, if this works...I think the reduced fert scheme is a big contributor to the success....if it fails, I'm blaming the ferts.
How long can I keep this thread alive, if I'm the only contributing editor? Maybe I can have my own private thread...Maybe I can take over the forum and drive everybody off? Mine...ALL MINE...:Cry:
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Don't assume, no response equals no interest.
If you made it to day 5 without any significant algae, then your weekly 50% water change is just around the corner. At that time, make sure you wipe down your glass to remove whatever gda has formed, and dose your macros accordingly.
Sounds like you're definitely making progress!
If you made it to day 5 without any significant algae, then your weekly 50% water change is just around the corner. At that time, make sure you wipe down your glass to remove whatever gda has formed, and dose your macros accordingly.
Sounds like you're definitely making progress!
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I'm very pleased to find someone to compare my tank parameters with!
Initial setup:
October 2008
Tank:
Oceanic 70g 36x18x25
Substrate:
2:1 mixture of Flourite Black to Onyx Sand - 2.5" in front, 5" in back
Water:
From tap
pH: 7.8
KH: 9 degrees
GH: 17 degrees
Nitrates: 10-15 ppm
5 gallon water change every two weeks
Plants: Blyxa japonica Egeria densa SeveralEchinodorus cordifolius Hygrophilia difformis Micranthemum umbrosum Myriophyllum mattogrossense Riccia fluitans Rotala wallichii
A few more I've probably forgotten
Density: About 50-60% of the substrate is planted
Fish:
60 Reed Tetras Hyphessobrycon elachys 6 Glowlight Tetras Hemigrammus erythrozonus 7 Phoenix Rasboras Boraras merah 6 Otos Otocinclus affinis 2 Thai Flying Foxes Epalzeorhynchus kalopterus 2 Siamese Algae Eaters Crossocheilus siamensis 2 Hillstream Loaches Beaufortia kweichowensis
Invertebrates:
6 Red Cherry Shrimp Neocaridina denticulata sinensis 3 Ghost Shrimp Palaemonetes sp. ?
Ramshorn Snails ?
Pond Snails
Aquascaping:
Three pieces of driftwood
Light System:
Nova Extreme T-5 HO 2x39W with Giesemann Midday 6000K bulbs, 12 hours a day
Heating:
Eheim Jager 200W @ 76F
Filter/Circulation:
Eheim ECCO 2236
CO2 Setup:
10# tank with JBL regulator, 1bps 24/7, to maintain roughly 15 - 20 ppm (drop checker with 4dKH solution). In-tank diffusion via a Hagen Elite Mini (thanks, Nicolay!). Was running DIY yeast at approximately the same rate for a few weeks.
Fertilization Schedule:
PPS-Pro Standard Macro Solution @ 4mL per day
Seachem Flourish @ 1 - 2 mL per day
10% iron chelate to achieve .1 ppm once a week
Offhand, I'd say that our water parameters, fish stocking, and equipment are relatively similar. You have exactly twice as much lighting (in terms of wattage) and quite a bit more circulation (my Eheim 2236 is rated at 160gph before media, compared to 340gph for the Fluval 405).
In terms of stock, I am curious about your algae eaters. IMHO, you want plants to out-compete problem algae, but you also want to nip algae in the bud with an algae cleaning squad before they can even get a foothold. Out of curiosity, have you observed your red tail shark and/or flying fox grazing frequently on algae (whether on the glass, substrate, rocks, driftwood, plants, etc.)?
Our fertilization techniques also differ. You are dosing EI, whereas I'm on PPS-Pro. Getting back into the freshwater planted hobby, I was surprised by how much has changed in the fertilization schools of thought in the past decade. During my reefkeeping days, one of the primary goals was to set up a self-sustainable ecosystem with minimal inputs (light, food, and calcium). While I'm positive EI works well for those who are doing it, with its emphasis on excessive nutrients and frequent resets via large water changes, EI didn't sit quite well with me - mostly because I'm plain lazy and don't like to lift buckets.
Since my tank has been up for just about two months (really about 5 weeks after accelerated cycling), I have the usual initial brown diatom algae on the glass, along with green spot algae appearing on the glass and on a few select plant leaves (not spreading), and one plant (received from another hobbyist) with some BBA (also not spreading from the affected leaves to the newer growth). About a week ago, the water became hazy white - I waited it out a few days, but it never turned green in a white cup and didn't clear up by itself, so I bought the $40 9W UV in-tank sterilizer from Petsmart. After running the UVS continuously for 3 days, the water is almost back to normal clarity. The fast-growing plants have taken off, and pearling begins about 3 hours into the photoperiod, though a few weeks back, I noticed yellowing of newer leaves so I upped the dosage of iron chelate to a daily dose of .07 ppm (assuming 60 gallons of water) for five days, so the ferrousphiles (is there such a word?) can store some away. The fish get fed twice a day with as much as they can eat in two minutes or so, and I'll throw in a couple of algae wafers for the bottom feeders every other day.
Since the current algae isn't spreading in my tank, I'll do some trimming and clip off the affected leaves with GSA and BBA when I've got more time on my hands. I'm also planning to add another 2x39W T5 HO fixture to effectively double the lighting and build a DIY combo CO2 reactor/inline heater. Debating whether to add a Koralia 1 for just a bit more circulation. Now I'm worried that the extra lighting and circulation will bring about an unwelcome algae bloom.
How long was it until your problems with algae got out of hand? I'm also wondering if, by breaking down the tank to clean each time, you're essentially starting from scratch in terms of establishing the plants (particularly stem plants that require a week or so to settle into the substrate), so they aren't able to out-compete the algae immediately.
I believe you've already stated something to the effect of, "There is no magical formula," and I completely agree. What works for someone else is likely to require a little tweaking to work for you. My own approach is to achieve and maintain a balance within the ecosystem, and observe changes over time. It's important to be patient - I don't know who said it first, but I've personally learned the hard way how true it is that "The only things that happen quickly in this hobby are disasters." Happy Thanksgiving!
Initial setup:
October 2008
Tank:
Oceanic 70g 36x18x25
Substrate:
2:1 mixture of Flourite Black to Onyx Sand - 2.5" in front, 5" in back
Water:
From tap
pH: 7.8
KH: 9 degrees
GH: 17 degrees
Nitrates: 10-15 ppm
5 gallon water change every two weeks
Plants: Blyxa japonica Egeria densa SeveralEchinodorus cordifolius Hygrophilia difformis Micranthemum umbrosum Myriophyllum mattogrossense Riccia fluitans Rotala wallichii
A few more I've probably forgotten
Density: About 50-60% of the substrate is planted
Fish:
60 Reed Tetras Hyphessobrycon elachys 6 Glowlight Tetras Hemigrammus erythrozonus 7 Phoenix Rasboras Boraras merah 6 Otos Otocinclus affinis 2 Thai Flying Foxes Epalzeorhynchus kalopterus 2 Siamese Algae Eaters Crossocheilus siamensis 2 Hillstream Loaches Beaufortia kweichowensis
Invertebrates:
6 Red Cherry Shrimp Neocaridina denticulata sinensis 3 Ghost Shrimp Palaemonetes sp. ?
Ramshorn Snails ?
Pond Snails
Aquascaping:
Three pieces of driftwood
Light System:
Nova Extreme T-5 HO 2x39W with Giesemann Midday 6000K bulbs, 12 hours a day
Heating:
Eheim Jager 200W @ 76F
Filter/Circulation:
Eheim ECCO 2236
CO2 Setup:
10# tank with JBL regulator, 1bps 24/7, to maintain roughly 15 - 20 ppm (drop checker with 4dKH solution). In-tank diffusion via a Hagen Elite Mini (thanks, Nicolay!). Was running DIY yeast at approximately the same rate for a few weeks.
Fertilization Schedule:
PPS-Pro Standard Macro Solution @ 4mL per day
Seachem Flourish @ 1 - 2 mL per day
10% iron chelate to achieve .1 ppm once a week
Offhand, I'd say that our water parameters, fish stocking, and equipment are relatively similar. You have exactly twice as much lighting (in terms of wattage) and quite a bit more circulation (my Eheim 2236 is rated at 160gph before media, compared to 340gph for the Fluval 405).
In terms of stock, I am curious about your algae eaters. IMHO, you want plants to out-compete problem algae, but you also want to nip algae in the bud with an algae cleaning squad before they can even get a foothold. Out of curiosity, have you observed your red tail shark and/or flying fox grazing frequently on algae (whether on the glass, substrate, rocks, driftwood, plants, etc.)?
Our fertilization techniques also differ. You are dosing EI, whereas I'm on PPS-Pro. Getting back into the freshwater planted hobby, I was surprised by how much has changed in the fertilization schools of thought in the past decade. During my reefkeeping days, one of the primary goals was to set up a self-sustainable ecosystem with minimal inputs (light, food, and calcium). While I'm positive EI works well for those who are doing it, with its emphasis on excessive nutrients and frequent resets via large water changes, EI didn't sit quite well with me - mostly because I'm plain lazy and don't like to lift buckets.
Since my tank has been up for just about two months (really about 5 weeks after accelerated cycling), I have the usual initial brown diatom algae on the glass, along with green spot algae appearing on the glass and on a few select plant leaves (not spreading), and one plant (received from another hobbyist) with some BBA (also not spreading from the affected leaves to the newer growth). About a week ago, the water became hazy white - I waited it out a few days, but it never turned green in a white cup and didn't clear up by itself, so I bought the $40 9W UV in-tank sterilizer from Petsmart. After running the UVS continuously for 3 days, the water is almost back to normal clarity. The fast-growing plants have taken off, and pearling begins about 3 hours into the photoperiod, though a few weeks back, I noticed yellowing of newer leaves so I upped the dosage of iron chelate to a daily dose of .07 ppm (assuming 60 gallons of water) for five days, so the ferrousphiles (is there such a word?) can store some away. The fish get fed twice a day with as much as they can eat in two minutes or so, and I'll throw in a couple of algae wafers for the bottom feeders every other day.
Since the current algae isn't spreading in my tank, I'll do some trimming and clip off the affected leaves with GSA and BBA when I've got more time on my hands. I'm also planning to add another 2x39W T5 HO fixture to effectively double the lighting and build a DIY combo CO2 reactor/inline heater. Debating whether to add a Koralia 1 for just a bit more circulation. Now I'm worried that the extra lighting and circulation will bring about an unwelcome algae bloom.
How long was it until your problems with algae got out of hand? I'm also wondering if, by breaking down the tank to clean each time, you're essentially starting from scratch in terms of establishing the plants (particularly stem plants that require a week or so to settle into the substrate), so they aren't able to out-compete the algae immediately.
I believe you've already stated something to the effect of, "There is no magical formula," and I completely agree. What works for someone else is likely to require a little tweaking to work for you. My own approach is to achieve and maintain a balance within the ecosystem, and observe changes over time. It's important to be patient - I don't know who said it first, but I've personally learned the hard way how true it is that "The only things that happen quickly in this hobby are disasters." Happy Thanksgiving!
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252 Posts
Latte, give me time to digest and compare our systems. We do have some interesting comparisons.
For now, I need to add some information and see if I can get some advice.
Since, I've been back on CO2, ferts, etc, I just measured my kH and pH at the end of the day with max photosynthesis, pearling, activity. My kH is now 10!...it's gone up from 7 and my pH is 6.6 which is down from 7.4. So it's obvious that I'm getting a lot of CO2 in the tank, but why would kH go up?
Fish are showing no sign of stress.
Drop checker is greenish yellow.
Algae is better.
Plants are growing.
Maybe my Master test kit and "cards" are way off?
For now, I need to add some information and see if I can get some advice.
Since, I've been back on CO2, ferts, etc, I just measured my kH and pH at the end of the day with max photosynthesis, pearling, activity. My kH is now 10!...it's gone up from 7 and my pH is 6.6 which is down from 7.4. So it's obvious that I'm getting a lot of CO2 in the tank, but why would kH go up?
Fish are showing no sign of stress.
Drop checker is greenish yellow.
Algae is better.
Plants are growing.
Maybe my Master test kit and "cards" are way off?
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105 Posts
I'm don't have a setup like yours, but aside from keeping co2 to 1-2 bbs, and have your lights on for about 8 hrs a day, maybe you can check your phosphate, and try to bring it to a bit lower and more reasonable area, because phosphate is algae's best friend..
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252 Posts
How did we jump to high phosphates?
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17 Posts
No problem - this is an interesting exercise for me, too, and I would very much like to follow up with your progress while you work through this.
Sounds like things are looking up already! I'll assume that you got your KH test kit back in February so it's not out of date, but you could double-check with a reference solution (say, the 4dKH solution you're using with the drop checker) to verify that the test kit is reading correctly. Unless you're topping off evaporate with tap water or using an additive (including ferts that might contain OH-), there's no good reason that your KH should increase while your pH decreases. Flourite is supposed to be inert, and you haven't observed any drastic changes in KH since setting up the tank nine months ago, correct? Just running through a quick checklist of potential KH influences - looking forward to your feedback on these!
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