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Well, GDA is easy to eliminate.
It's appears when there is an imbalance related to Po4 and Ca.
If Ca is high this is because you probably had added too much. 50% water change solves it. And reduced the quantity next time.
About Po4, Water change helps if the new watter hasn't Po4. Reducing the ppms you add helps a lot. I think that 0.5 is enough unless you have a lot of microsorums, marsilea crenata, etc.
This two items should be in your mind in order to avoid a new GDA problem.
Finally, to eliminate it you should use the "generic protocol of the Kno3". Stop fertilizing at all. Change 50% of the water. Add every day for 1 week 1 gram of Kno3 every 50 gallons until GSA appears. If after one week the GPA doesn't appears, then repeat it but 2 gram every 50 gallons and so on.
I know that in this forum you guys have very different ideas about how to deal with GDA. This way to solve it was sucesfully used hundred of times during the last three years.
You can find more info about this in this thread / article:
http://www.drpez.net/panel/showthread.php?t=154436
You know, when a theory doesn't work, then this theory should be abandoned.

Edit note: For full English translation, please refer to here, starting on post number 214.
 

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Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...

How do I translate this article? My high school Spanish isn't good enough, and I don't know how to use google translator. Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...

How do I translate this article? My high school Spanish isn't good enough, and I don't know how to use google translator. Thanks.
You go to www.google.com, click on languaje tools. Then you copy paste the paragraph and select from spanish to english.
If you understand some spanish better because the technology is not good enough yet.
I suggest you start reading the chapter "el metodo de los desequilibrios controlados", because the beginning is an explanation about myths and how to tune up properly the aquarium,
Regards
 

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Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...

Very interesting article Dr Pez.
I was unable to get the translation when the text got to the info on the Philips PLL-840s.
Do you know what I should do so that I can read it?

EDIT: Never mind. I re-did it and was able to get it. A lot is lost in translation.
 

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Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...

Thanks for the help in the translation. This makes a lot of sense to me all the sudden. I have very hard water and was dosing Po4 in excess to get rid of Green Spot Algae. All the sudden, I am hit with Red Algae and major Green Dust Algae. I have now done a 50% water change and am going to try to implement "Method of Controlled Imbalance."
 

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Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...

I read it and have a few questions about it that may be translation issues more than anything. Just cant do it right now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...

Well, the main idea behind the MDC is to reach the GSA for three reasons. 1) close to GSA no other algae can bloom 2) the amount of Kno3 your aquarium needs to reach the gsa is the real consumption of your aquarium per week. That's the amount you should use for fertilizing. 3) If you have any algae, if you look for gsa, the algae stop bloom or die.
Fertilizing in this way makes that is you test your water there is never more than 2.5 ppm of No3.
In my opinion, rigid rules like 10.1.15 makes no sense, diferents aquariums have diferents balances: 20.1.15, 5.5.15, or whatever.

The idea about to work only about Kno3 is because if you work with too many other variables, then you don't know how to induce a solution. And if you solve it, you don't know why it happend.

In the other hand, the idea is to use your plants as the filter of your aquarium.

The MDC is only a frame, as soon as you understand it you can use any fertilizing method you want without algae. At the forum of www.drpez.com many people use PPS or EI, etc.

In this thread you can read a little more (in english) about the MDC, this is an unfinished debate with Tom Barr (plantBrain):
http://www.drpez.net/panel/showthread.php?t=307546&page=2&pp=25
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Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...

I am off to read more. You know, if you had time, it would be cool to have you do a write up on the basics of MDC. It would really help the newer people (like myself). :)
 

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Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...

Christian_rubilar, I hope you see this post.

I have read the info on the link you provided and I found it not only interesting but I share many of the same ideas as you. However, I do have some questions so that I can be sure I am understanding you correctly.

I need a translation for the following words as these did not translate:
- Coadyudantes
- Tapizantes
- Acuarismo ( I think it means the aquarium hobby)
- Sales (this seemed to be used in a couple/few different ways)
- GAP - green algae point or what you mean by point
- Siguientres

I do realize you want use to dose KNO3 to a point a which green spot algae is the only one left. Is this correct? What then?
In the beginning of your article you say "....seen throughout this work does not recommend the use of potassium sulphate....". However, a few pages in to the article you say "With regard to potassium, all indicate that this has an important role in halting the progression of sevral types of algae". and "....one could argue in principle that the use of potassium in the .....is one of the key variables, or to avoid an explosion of algae or to control them. Potassium is an alkali earth metal and this could be why EI dosing works (for most) as there is so much K2SO4 that the algae cant survive as little is consumed by the plants and a 50% water change will not flush out enough to prevent the levels from continuing to rise over time.

I really want to try your suggestions but it would be helpful to have a better guide, or is it as simple as dosing KNO3 at 1 gram per 200 liters three events per week. This equates only ~3 ppm per event.

Lastly, when talking about the amount of light per liter are you simply taking the given tank size or the volume of water actually subjected to the light. For instance, I have a 75 gallon tank BUT this is when measured on the outside. Once it has substrate and decorations in it the actual water is about 60 gals that has light on it. Several gallons are in the substrate and do not recieve light and the glass is 1/2 inch thick, etc.

Thanks, Newt
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...

I do realize you want use to dose KNO3 to a point a which green spot algae is the only one left. Is this correct? What then?
The main idea is that when you reach the GSA other algae die or stop bloom. If you see, there are several pictures with the most common algae, there are specific protocols to deal with them with the "generic Kno3 protocol" we are talking about.

In the beginning of your article you say "....seen throughout this work does not recommend the use of potassium sulphate....". However, a few pages in to the article you say "With regard to potassium, all indicate that this has an important role in halting the progression of sevral types of algae". and "....one could argue in principle that the use of potassium in the .....is one of the key variables, or to avoid an explosion of algae or to control them. Potassium is an alkali earth metal and this could be why EI dosing works (for most) as there is so much K2SO4 that the algae cant survive as little is consumed by the plants and a 50% water change will not flush out enough to prevent the levels from continuing to rise over time.?
In this thread I debate with Barr about it:
http://www.drpez.net/panel/showthread.php?t=307546&page=2&pp=25
When I mention potassium I don't mean potassium sulphate. You know, salts always have a partner: sulfate, chloridre, etc. I think that the best is to add two good ones instead of sulfate. Some friend from Chile use potasa 15-0-15 and works great!!
It's not a matter of high dosis, I believe that using the Kno3 protocol you can reach the real consumption of your aquarium and avoid algae bloom and have exccelente plant growth rate.

I really want to try your suggestions but it would be helpful to have a better guide, or is it as simple as dosing KNO3 at 1 gram per 200 liters three events per week. This equates only ~3 ppm per event.
This is a missunderstanding. The main idea behing the MDC is that rules like 10.1.15 doens't work. So I propose to use the generic protocol of Kno3 to induce gsa (algae control) and like a way to find the real consumption of your aquarium (fertilizing). You can read a lot about it in the debate with Barr. I suggest this very low doze like a start point (I really believe about to make everything simple for begginers). The idea is that all aquariums have different consumptions and differents balances. For example, if you have a carpet of marsilea crenata you will need to add a lot of Po4 in order to avoid gsa. If your carpet is a glosso one, then your aquarium will need a lot of Kno3 But, when you know exactly the consumption, then, plant are properly fertilized and if you test your water the No3 should be under 5 ppm.

Lastly, when talking about the amount of light per liter are you simply taking the given tank size or the volume of water actually subjected to the light. For instance, I have a 75 gallon tank BUT this is when measured on the outside. Once it has substrate and decorations in it the actual water is about 60 gals that has light on it. Several gallons are in the substrate and do not recieve light and the glass is 1/2 inch thick, etc.
I think that the approach about light should be understandable even for begginers. Usually it became too complex. The watt/liter rule is simple to understand and there is a convention about to use the raw litters or gallons.
My idea behind this is to use the plants as the aquarium filter, but I need at least 4 watts/gallon to have the plants filtering the aquarium properly. Esencially I have in mind plants like glosso, marsilea crenata, etc, I mean, the plants you are going to use to make a carpet.
Diana Wastald had a huge influence some years ago at spanish speaking forums and we had to work a lot to convice people to use some more light.

- Coadyudantes:
Somethin secundary, not important, that has a relationship with the principal thing but not important. I talk about when you have red algae and people says thay the cause is too long light period or that the filter is too strong, etc.

- Tapizantes:
Are the plants that makes a carpet, like glosso, HC, eleocharis, etc.

- Acuarismo ( I think it means the aquarium hobby)
Yes

- Sales (this seemed to be used in a couple/few different ways)
Means salt but I use to describe any fertilizer without chelate. There I criticize a group of argentina who prepared at home micros fertilazers without chelate but I don't mention them because is unpolite.

- GAP - green algae point o.r what you mean by point
mmmmm, should be GSA, green spot algae.

- Siguientres
It is a typing mistake, is "siguientes" and means "followings"

Please notice that the article continues below after Dorje comments. The MDC began as a debate and grew a lot from the feedback but we kept it as a thread, for this reason you will finde that there are some people answers in between.
The MDC finishes with this footnote:
"7. Sorín, Raúl, Tomo I, Instalación y Mantenimiento de acuarios, 1986, ed. Albatros, Bs. As. Argentina, p. 125 y ss."

You can have some more explaining info about the MDC in this interview:
http://acuariorosa.blogspot.com/2009/04/entrevista-christian-rubilar.html

I apologize if I didn't explain my self properly.
Regards
 

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Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to all of my questions.

I will continue increasing my KNO3 until only GSA is present (dont have much of this at all).
My GDA is slowly disappearing since removing my new TEK 4x54w lighting (for sale btw) and bumping up my CO2 a tad and allowing my PO4 to drop below 1ppm. I should not add any PO4, correct? or should I keep it around 0.5ppm?

So you are saying the amount of potassium in the KNO3 should be adequate for the tank?

I still stay with my idea that potassium which is not really consumed by the plants, certainly not like phosphate and nitrate, build up in the water column to toxic levels for algae. I believe the potassium is used by the plants more as an essential role in water status within the plant and turgor pressure of its cells. Also K is involved in the accumulation and translocation of newly formed carbohydrates.
 

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Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...

Well, I increased my KNO3 dosing and now have 15 to 20ppm. I also have brazilian pennywort growing on the surface. Awhile ago I removed my TEK 4x54w HO fixture which really made the GDA grow. I am keeping the PO4 to 0.5ppm.

I am happy to report that the algae is already disappearing, slowly but steadily.:D
 

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Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

I have moved this discussion here on the suggestion of a board member. Please continue discussion as needed here. Thanks.
 

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Thanks, Bert H
:focus::bump:
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...

I should not add any PO4, correct? or should I keep it around 0.5ppm?`
When you use the Kno3 generic protocol you should not add anything else (control algae approach).
About Po4, I think that you should add what your plants needs (Fertilizing approach).
I think that there is a mistake about keeping Po4 and other macros in rigid values like 1 ppm Po4, 10 ppm No3, etc.
There is a general misunderstanding about fertilizing. If you test and you can read 1 ppm of Po4, there is something wrong, probably you are adding too much Po4. I think that the best is to keep tha tank close to GSA.
I had an aquarium with only marsilea crenata. In that tank I used to add about 4 ppm of Po4 a week and I always was very close to GSA. This was because the marsilea crenata uptaked all the Po4 I added.

So you are saying the amount of potassium in the KNO3 should be adequate for the tank?
This is a general rule because some plants needs more K like microsorums.

I still stay with my idea that potassium which is not really consumed by the plants, certainly not like phosphate and nitrate, build up in the water column to toxic levels for algae
mmmm, yes and no. I think that the problem with potasium is that plants need just a little. If you add too much then plants uptake it. This is what farmers call "luxury consumption". When this happens you run out of No3 and then there are proper conditions for algae. I don't like to use the word toxic related to algae because algae only blooms when there are proper condition.

I believe the potassium is used by the plants more as an essential role in water status within the plant and turgor pressure of its cells. Also K is involved in the accumulation and translocation of newly formed carbohydrates.
Potassium is very important, no doubt. If to take a look to the "bible", Sorin explains:

"In the body of plants, potassium is essential for the formation of starch and cellulose. As for the conversion of these substances into glucose. His speech was a catalyst, ie, it performed just by their presence and amounts pequenias not interveninng in the chemical reaction. Ie, directs the reaction but is not involved in it. Potassium is one of many metal catalysts, as opposed to organic catalysts such as enzymes and yeasts that are organic catalysts (alive)"

You can download the Sorin's book from this link:
http://rapidshare.com/files/30646921/Sorin_1_1_.pdf

The book was sold out over 20 years ago and it will never be printed againg (last edition was in 1986), so the copyrights are abandoned.

The best of that book is the Macro/ micros chapter, and lighting. Others chapters are simply obsolets.

Regards
 

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Thanks again for your help.
It does appear to be working.
The T5HO 4 x 54w was too much along with the GroLux Std and WS. I've gone back to an Aquarelle, ADV850 and AGA 8000K. I've got a DYI in mind for a 4 X T8 fixture. I already have the miro4 reflector and the ballast.
As for now KNO3 and a daily tad (3 ml) of PO4 (liquid mix per Seachem strength) as my tank consumes it quickly and I dont want to run out.
 

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

I downloaded Sorin's book but itsin Spanish and is a pdf.
Is there a way to use the google translator?:-k
 

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Okay...let me try to understand this concept in simpler term.

1) Dose only KNO3 until you only get GDA. This will be the amount of KNO3 for weekly dosing.
2) To get rid of GDA, manually remove it.

Do you go back to dosing KH2P04 and CSM+B after this? I'm using the EI method.

So after a major trimming, you'll have to cut back on KNO3 to find the optimum again or else you'll get GDA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like you'll have to constantly monitor your levels.
 
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