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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

1) Dose only KNO3 until you only get GDA. This will be the amount of KNO3 for weekly dosing.
2) To get rid of GDA, manually remove it.
Yes, that's the metod Christian suggest to control the GDA, whit a water change on the day 0 and 7...

Do you go back to dosing KH2P04 and CSM+B after this? I'm using the EI method.
You can go back to your fertilizing metod, but it's good for you to know before what went wrong before you make the same mistake again, in the case of GDA I suggest not to use KH2PO4 since there is enough PO4 in the water.

So after a major trimming, you'll have to cut back on KNO3 to find the optimum again or else you'll get GDA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like you'll have to constantly monitor your levels.
there is no need to monitor any level since your bioindicator will be GSA, if you do a major trimming you can make a water change and star dosing KNO3 'till you get the GSA and that would be your weekly dose and the rest would be as the EI method suggests.

Isn't so Christian...

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Discussion Starter · #23 · (Edited)
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Okay...let me try to understand this concept in simpler term.
Ok, let's do it:

The MCI is a method of algae control and fertilizing.

Algae control approach:

1) Remove the GDA.
2) 50% water change
3) stopt fertilizing at all
4) Check your Co2, it should be at the maximum tolerated. PH/KH charts are useless. The best is to see how your shrims behaves. Increase slowly the amount of Co2. If they try to escape there is "real" 35 ppm of Co2. Then, you tune it a little less, use a filter or whatever to get away the Co2 from you water. If you have an electronic kit (Milwakee or similar) its much easier.
5) Add Kno3, 1 gram every 50 gallons per day during 1 week.
6) Day 7 50% water change

If after 1 week you didn't reach GSA, continue another 7 days but add 2 grams of kno3 every 50 gallons.

Fertilizing approach:

The amount of kno3 you used to reach GSA is the real consumption of your aquarium. This is amount you should use per week of Kno3.

GDA is related to a complex imbalance that involves Ca and Po4. So, don't worry about CSM+B.
You should add less Ca and Po4. Try adding 1/3 of the dozing you was using.

About Po4, I think that you should add it only if it is necesary. If you reach GSA the I suggest you add 0.1 ppm and see what hapend next week. If you reach it again you add 0.2 ppm and so on until you find the real consumption of your aquarium.

I'm using the EI method.
You can use any method you like. But you should understand that all aquariums are different because there are differents combinations of plants, light, Co2, fish, etc. Every plant specie has unique needs. For example, marsilea crenata needs tons of Po4, microsorums needs k, Po4 and it's very sensitive to chloride. Glosso needs tons of No3, etc, etc.
This is the reason why rigid rules doesn't work. Of course you can solve many problems with Excel but this only hides the real issue.

So after a major trimming, you'll have to cut back on KNO3 to find the optimum again or else you'll get GDA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like you'll have to constantly monitor your levels.
Once you know the real consumption of your aquarium you reach a balance. You don't need to constantly monitor your levels. You should just take a look if you have or not some GSA just before the water change.
But remember that we work with a dynamic balance because the aquarium is changing all the time. The generic protocol of the Kno3 I suggest will help you a lot to know how does your aquarium works. We have been using this method for over 4 years and algae is not an issue any more, not even for begginers.

If you take a look at the CIM, go down until you reach the algae pictures, you'll see that we had identified the most common algae and how to deal with them.

http://www.drpez.net/panel/showthread.php?t=154436

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Discussion Starter · #24 · (Edited)
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

there is no need to monitor any level since your bioindicator will be GSA, if you do a major trimming you can make a water change and star dosing KNO3 'till you get the GSA and that would be your weekly dose and the rest would be as the EI method suggests.

Isn't so Christian...

Regards
precisely. You can use the algae control approach of the MCI and any other fertilizing method you feel comfortable with. Or you can use the MCI as your main fertilizing method. It's up to you, I am not a priest so I am not interested in evangelize nobody with my method.

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Discussion Starter · #25 · (Edited)
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

I downloaded Sorin's book but itsin Spanish and is a pdf.
Is there a way to use the google translator?:-k
There are free programs that transform pdf in text, then you can cntl copy it and translate with google translator.
One website I know is www.softonic.com
Anyway, the chapters about Co2, macro and micros is not that long, you can type it.
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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Thank you Gdevil and Christian for responding to my questions.

Your Fertilizing approach answered my question.

The MCI is a method of algae control and fertilizing.

Algae control approach:

1) Remove the GDA.
2) 50% water change
3) stopt fertilizing at all
4) Check your Co2, it should be at the maximum tolerated. PH/KH charts are useless. The best is to see how your shrims behaves. Increase slowly the amount of Co2. If they try to escape there is "real" 35 ppm of Co2. Then, you tune it a little less, use a filter or whatever to get away the Co2 from you water. If you have an electronic kit (Milwakee or similar) its much easier.
5) Add Kno3, 1 gram every 50 gallons per day during 1 week.
6) Day 7 50% water change

If after 1 week you didn't reach GSA, continue another 7 days but add 2 grams of kno3 every 50 gallons.

Fertilizing approach:

The amount of kno3 you used to reach GSA is the real consumption of your aquarium. This is amount you should use per week of Kno3.

GDA is related to a complex imbalance that involves Ca and Po4. So, don't worry about CSM+B.
You should add less Ca and Po4. Try adding 1/3 of the dozing you was using.

About Po4, I think that you should add it only if it is necesary. If you reach GSA the I suggest you add 0.1 ppm and see what hapend next week. If you reach it again you add 0.2 ppm and so on until you find the real consumption of your aquarium.

Once you know the real consumption of your aquarium you reach a balance. You don't need to constantly monitor your levels. You should just take a look if you have or not some GSA just before the water change.
 

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

theres a lot of common sense information here, which is a good thing.
cheers for starting this discussion and its been amazingly civil.

its great to see discussion that involves monitoring the tank by actually using the plants and algae as indicators of the tanks health. you watch a tank long enough, you can begin to find patterns and you can infer what will happen next. I read through this discussion and quite a few familiar things did click.

I dose in excess, but often I do agree that it gets me in trouble and I see it coming.
N - P ratios also get me in trouble. but good trouble.
I hate to see plants starve, wither, not live up to potential.
maybe I should work harder at trying to find a balance between yield and stability.
but I like yield very much..
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

theres a lot of common sense information here, which is a good thing.
cheers for starting this discussion and its been amazingly civil.

its great to see discussion that involves monitoring the tank by actually using the plants and algae as indicators of the tanks health. you watch a tank long enough, you can begin to find patterns and you can infer what will happen next. I read through this discussion and quite a few familiar things did click.

I dose in excess, but often I do agree that it gets me in trouble and I see it coming.
N - P ratios also get me in trouble. but good trouble.
I hate to see plants starve, wither, not live up to potential.
maybe I should work harder at trying to find a balance between yield and stability.
but I like yield very much.
Well, I used to cultivated aquarium plant as a living. The place I had was small so I was very interested about efficiency, high rates of growing and, of course, avoid starvation. From that experience I realize that there is a false dichotomy between efficiency and proper feeding. The idea I propose is to reach what your plants are really uptaking. There is no need of having nutrients in the water column that are not going to be consumed with one exception: No3. As soon as you lack No3 you are in troubles.

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

true. and once growth stalls due to low nitrates all kinds of trouble ensues. It can be a real mess especially in a high light tank. I think one of the things I need to address is the way I dose macros. I have been mixing up KNO3 and KH2PO4 together in a solution where I think I should keep 2 solutions and dose what I think I need for each. In slower growth show tanks, this works fine. In my growouts, not so much as time goes on after water change.

my original reasoning on the mixed macros is that I will have a stable ratio between them, but my plants seem to have other plans and uptake at different rates based on the tank's sp. mix.. Or at least thats what I think happens. I'd like to try higher PO4 after water change - then less PO4 further into the grow cycle if it seems necessary. at least I'll have the flexibility to do so if I use 2 solutions.
 

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Me too!

Thanks so much for such an easy method and all the time you took to explain things.

My plants look so much healthier.:D

=D>

:bump2:
 

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Sticky status for this thread?

I admit to some confusion here as I am seeing references to gsa and gda. I don't have any green dust algae in any of my tanks but I do have green spot algae in two of my tanks. Especially on (can anyone guess?) my anubias and the older leaves of crypts and a large crinum.

Is this a method for removing/controlling gsa, gda, or both the previous and other types of algae? Or, rather, is it a method for finding a more optimum method of fertilization and the side benefit is a reduction or elimination of gda, gsa, et al?

Now it is time to light a pipe of toasted cavendish, reread the thread, and think a bit. Thanks to all and good luck.

stu
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 · (Edited)
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

I admit to some confusion here as I am seeing references to gsa and gda.
I undertand your confusion. This is because I resume the MCI in a few sentences. I should translate the complete thread, it will take some weeks. Meanwhile you can use google translator. If you go down in the first page you will find many algae pictures, there you have specific protocols to deal with them:
http://www.drpez.net/panel/showthread.php?t=154436

I don't have any green dust algae in any of my tanks but I do have green spot algae in two of my tanks. Especially on (can anyone guess?) my anubias and the older leaves of crypts and a large crinum.
One of the ideas of the MCI is that we are fertilizing plants instead of tanks. Each specie has a different uptake. Anubias and crinums needs extra Po4. GSA is a bio indicator or an imbalance about Po4, a lack of Po4. The protocol for the GSA is:

1. 50% water change.
2. Stopt fertilizing at all.
3. Clean the GSA (We are going to use it as a witness) every day.
4. Add Po4 every day. The doze is a gram every 500 gallons.
5. Repeat #3 and #4 until GSA doens't show up again.
6. The amount of Po4 you needed to stop GSA is the doze you should use per week.
7. 50% water change on the 7th day.

Is this a method for removing/controlling gsa, gda, or both the previous and other types of algae? Or, rather, is it a method for finding a more optimum method of fertilization and the side benefit is a reduction or elimination of gda, gsa, et al?
The MCI is a method for control any kind of algae and for fertilizing. I believe that fertilizing and algae control are 2 faces of the same coin. The algae are bio indicators of your failures, You can't separate fertilizing and algae control.
I look for the GSA in the same way that a blind man looks for the wall at the street with his walking stick. As soon as I find the GSA I know where I am. If I stay close to GSA there will be no other algae. This is the main idea about algae control.
About fertilizing, the idea is that every plant has different needs, so for me rules like 10.1.15 or TB idea about non limiting resources makes no sense. I propose to use the generic protocol of the Kno3 as a way to know the real uptake of your plants about No3. You can use the Po4 protocol against GSA to know exactly how much Po4 you need.
It's just common sense, if you have guest to dinner you should ask how many in order to know how much food you need. You don't ask about how many square feet is the house. The approach that is use in fertilizing is like this, people talks about how many gallons has the tank instead of taking care of the species you have.

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Very interesting stuff, Christian. Some questions and comments for you.

So if I understand you correctly, you are espousing doing a major water change on the tank, then adding only nitrates daily during the week until you see the appearance of green dust algae (gda) on the glass. At that point you say you know how much NO3 your tank needs for a week.

Let me use an example of my 10 gallon tank (which has been ignored and I have a near algae farm on now). Let's say, after a major water change and clean out, I would then add 0.2g of NO3 to the tank per day. No other macros or micros at all? If after 3 days, I start to see the appearance of gda on the glass, I will know that my tank's needs are approximately 0.6g of NO3 for the week (assuming I do my 50% water change at week's end). At that point, then I could dose 0.3g at water change, and a second 0.3g midweek to meet the tank's needs, correct? If by chance, I cannot do a water change for 2 weeks (vacation or life getting in the way), then I would add 0.3g of NO3 every 3 days or so, correct? I did read in your reference Spanish thread that you recommend dosing 3x/week - is this a must or can it be modified as needed?

More to follow on another thread...
 

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Until GSA is reached not GDA. This will eliminate GDA then you do the same with phosphate dosing for dealing with the GSA.
 

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

...continuing...

The 10 gallon tank I refer to on the above thread is an 'experimental tank' for me, run on city water which I obtain from a friend, as I have well water at the house. My other two tanks, both 50 gallons, are run on my house water.

Being on well water from a limestone aquifer, means I have high kh and gh, mostly from calcium carbonate. My water does not have NO3 or PO4 which I can measure. According to your proposals, high Ca is a problem. This is a 'problem' I cannot do away with, as I have no plans nor desire to purchase an RO unit. I deal with this issue by adding Mg to my tanks twice a week. I have learned that certain plants just will not thrive in my water, and others are marginal, with a little tinkering in my part, ie addition of Mg.

To get away from algae issues temporarily, how do you deal with stunting issues on plants? If I don't add Mg to my tanks, several plants (Rotalas, Proserpinaca) will stunt considerably on me. As it is, I still get a little stunting on certain plants, but it is much less with the Mg addition.

In addition to the above, I have always found that I could not run a 'lean' tank with my water. Nutrient uptake/requirements are different with hard water as opposed to soft(er) waters. Any comments you'd like to direct to that? Or can you direct me to any portions of your Spanish threads which deal with this (I speak Spanish also).

Interesting stuff...
 

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Until GSA is reached not GDA. This will eliminate GDA then you do the same with phosphate dosing for dealing with the GSA.
I thought the main reference was to GDA and NO3 uptakes. I thought a similar approach was used for GSA with PO4 - adding PO4 until GSA was gone. :confused:
 
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