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Discussion Starter · #41 · (Edited)
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

I thought the main reference was to GDA and NO3 uptakes. I thought a similar approach was used for GSA with PO4 - adding PO4 until GSA was gone. :confused:
Newt was right, we were talking about to reach GSA as a way to eliminate GDA and other algae.

That approach can be used with all macros (Fe included) at the MCI. For example, you talk about your 10 gallon tank. You have too much Ca in your tap water and you add MG to compensate it. If you stop fertilizing with MG you have problems very soon. This probably means that you are adding not enough MG. You can use the same approach I propose with No3 with MG. Instead of looking for GSA you are going to look for this algae:



Usually people say that algae blooms because an excess of nutrients, TB says that they show up because a lack of nutrients, I believe that is something in between, they appear when there is an specific imbalance. You can solve it with the Kno3 protocol and after that reviewing you dozing. You can use the algae as feedback, for this reason I don't agree with the magic solution of Excel.

As I said before, the main idea is that we are fertilizing plants intead of tanks. This is another layer in the MCI, to solve algae issues in long term with proper election of plants. You mentioned that your water has too much Ca. Perhaps you should have some plants that consumes priority Ca as rotala macrandra among others.

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Let me see if I have this straight, add NO3 daily until you start seeing green SPOT algae. This will be the measure of NO3 needed to stop green DUST algae?
 

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

This is very interesting. I think I will try this on my 90g tank. I have intermittant problems w/ BBA which I resort to killing w/ Excel.

One question--I gather you are suggesting that if I follow this method to find the KNO3 level required to induce GSA (green spot algae) then I can maintain this level and prevent the BBA from returning?

Bert H--thanks for trying to clarify between GSA and GDA. I have been confused reading this as at times they seem to have been used interchangealby (or else I have just missed the finer points).

Very interesting--thanks for posting this!

-Roy
 

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Let me see if I have this straight, add NO3 daily until you start seeing green SPOT algae. This will be the measure of NO3 needed to stop green DUST algae?
I think Christian is saying once you see GSA while dosing no3 daily that the amount you dosed to that point is what you should use as a starting point for a weekly dosage. Maybe the plants with this amount of kno3 and proper co2 have now depleted the phosphate.

Once you have your KNO3 figured out you are then riding on the edge of GSA which usually means your low on phosphate right? Now you start dosing along with you new weekly starting point for kno3 a small amount of phosphate. Say .1ppm per day until you no longer see new GSA developing on glass or plants. Ect........

This seems like a logical approach for me because In my experience all algae forms can be beat. I think Christian is just giving a system to help people find the balance (the +/- part of EI) quicker. EI is a system I have used successfully but I have also seen ferts load in excess big time in my aquarium and cause problems for me.

This being said I also think that lacking KNO3 in a tank will cause plants the biggest problems and bring BGA into the picture. So makes sense to start with Kno3.

I have been chasing a problem for a few months now and have had some Gda lately. I think I will give this a try.
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Let me see if I have this straight, add NO3 daily until you start seeing green SPOT algae. This will be the measure of NO3 needed to stop green DUST algae?
No.
To stop GDA you should follow the GDA protocol.
The generic protocol of Kno3 measures the amount of Kno3 you need per week in order to fertilize properly with that macro and avoid algae.
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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

This is very interesting. I think I will try this on my 90g tank. I have intermittant problems w/ BBA which I resort to killing w/ Excel.

One question--I gather you are suggesting that if I follow this method to find the KNO3 level required to induce GSA (green spot algae) then I can maintain this level and prevent the BBA from returning?
You can stop bloom and prevent BBA returning with the Kno3 generic protocol. But BBA is a vague. Wich one do you have?



This one is related to an imbalance that envolves too much Ca (related to MG) and Fe.
The generic protocol of Kno3 works great to stop the bloom and you can use Excel to kill it. After that you should a) add more MG or b) add less Ca and add less Fe.

IF the algae you call BBA is this one:



Then you have an imbalance related to Fe and micros. The solution is the use the generic protocol of Kno3 + Excel. After that, you should add 1/3 of the micros + Fe. This algae is typical when you used CSM+B.

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

`I think Christian is saying once you see GSA while dosing no3 daily that the amount you dosed to that point is what you should use as a starting point for a weekly dosage. Maybe the plants with this amount of kno3 and proper co2 have now depleted the phosphate.
Yes!

Once you have your KNO3 figured out you are then riding on the edge of GSA which usually means your low on phosphate right? Now you start dosing along with you new weekly starting point for kno3 a small amount of phosphate. Say .1ppm per day until you no longer see new GSA developing on glass or plants. Ect........
No exactly. If you have GSA then you are lacking Po4 and your plants will suffer because of it. But if you are close, means that your plants are properly fed without algae issues. Usually there is no need of adding Po4. GSA will tell you if you have to add it or not. Depends of the plants you have and their needs.
I used to cultivate anubias in monoculture with very high light, I used to add Po4 as salt with my hands and I was always close to GSA. The anubias grew up very fast. The same happend with a noculture of marsilea crenata.

This seems like a logical approach for me because In my experience all algae forms can be beat. I think Christian is just giving a system to help people find the balance (the =/- part of EI) quicker. EI is a system I have used successfully but I have also seen ferts load in excess big time in my aquarium and cause problems for me.
That's the idea! The MCI born as my (algae) feedback of the EI. After that I abandoned the EI and I developed the fertilizing approach of the MCI.

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

You can stop bloom and prevent BBA returning with the Kno3 generic protocol. But BBA is a vague. Wich one do you have?

IF the algae you call BBA is this one:



Then you have an imbalance related to Fe and micros. The solution is the use the generic protocol of Kno3 + Excel. After that, you should add 1/3 of the micros + Fe. This algae is typical when you used CSM+B.
I have this type and am using CSM+B for my micros--I am impressed at your diagnosis!

I have read that CSM+B can not have enough iron (or if I am not dosing enough) so I have recently (this week) begun adding Seachem's Iron suppliment. Too soon to tell if this will help though.

My problem w/ the BBA is not terrible (but a constant problem)--if there is a chance to balance things better to prevent it then I am definitely willing to try.

From your post it seems you recommend following the protocol you have outlined to determine the proper KNO3 weekly amount based on the level required to induce GSA. After that I get a little confused. . .

A couple questions:

1. During the KNO3 protocol should I continue to dose micros or potassium? (I am currently dosing both in addition to KNO3, no PO4 currently as my tests indicate that I have more than enough from feeding my fish).

2. After I find the correct KNO3 level what amount of micro's should I add? You specify 1/3--I am not sure if this means 1/3 of the KNO3 amount or 1/3 of my current dosing or something else entirely.

Thanks,

-Roy
 

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

This is an awesome thread, and JUST what I needed! I'm been having a heck of a time trying to figure out my dosing for a 55 gal since it has a bit of topsoil ( 1/4" ) under the substrate.

I'm going to do a water change and cleaning tonight and start the methods tomorrow to find the right KNO3 and PO4 I need.

One question: Is there a way to convert grams to teaspoons? (Is a 1/8 tsp a close measure for 1 gram of KNO3, or 1/4 tsp? ) I have a 1/8th tsp and a 1/4 tsp that I want to start with for this experiment, I don't have a gram scale. Currently all my doses are done by the tsp (1/8 tsp KH2PO4 and 1/2 tsp KNO3, 3x weekly. I stopped dosing micros at all because even the slightest bit leads to algae outbreaks...I guess due to the soil underlayer).

Thanks,
Dave
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

I have read that CSM+B can not have enough iron (or if I am not dosing enough) so I have recently (this week) begun adding Seachem's Iron suppliment. Too soon to tell if this will help though.
The iron fashion....I think that the problem with CSM+B is another but not the lack of Fe.
May you please post the link yo mentioned?

A couple questions:

1. During the KNO3 protocol should I continue to dose micros or potassium? (I am currently dosing both in addition to KNO3, no PO4 currently as my tests indicate that I have more than enough from feeding my fish).
No, you should stop fertilizing at all, only Kno3.
About the Po4, you should have plants with priority need of Po4. Marsilea crenata is the best choice. As soon as you have a carpet of marsilea crenata you will need to add Po4.

2. After I find the correct KNO3 level what amount of micro's should I add? You specify 1/3--I am not sure if this means 1/3 of the KNO3 amount or 1/3 of my current dosing or something else entirely.
I mean 1/3 of the CSM+B. The amount of Kno3 you need for reach the GSA is what you need por week.

Each algae has the same Kno3 protocol but with some extra tip, for this reason the best is to check the spanish version until I translate it.

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Cool--thanks for the clarification. I plan to start this soon--after my usual weekend 50% water change. I will post my results here as things progress unless you object (I can start a new thread if you'd prefer).

I will look for the link on iron and post here if I can find it. It may not have been regarding the lack of quantity of iron but the type and it's availability to the plants. Will look for it. . .
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

One question: Is there a way to convert grams to teaspoons? (Is a 1/8 tsp a close measure for 1 gram of KNO3, or 1/4 tsp? ) I have a 1/8th tsp and a 1/4 tsp that I want to start with for this experiment, I don't have a gram scale. Currently all my doses are done by the tsp (1/8 tsp KH2PO4 and 1/2 tsp KNO3, 3x weekly. I stopped dosing micros at all because even the slightest bit leads to algae outbreaks...I guess due to the soil underlayer).
1/4 teaspon is 125 ml, about 1.5 gram of Kno3. You can use that.

But you need a scale for the Po4 or to prepare a solution. Today I bought an electronic scale at ebay for 8 dollars shipping included. You can use it for Po4 and micros, that's the best!

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

My 40gal contains: large amunt of anubias and java fern, dwarf sag, hornwort, frogbit, crypts, hygro polysperma and angustifolia.

I haven't get to the state of green spot algae yet. I have been adding 1/2 tsp of KNO3 for almost a week with nothing else. String algae doesn't seem to be dying or turning grey. This weekend I'll up another 1/4 tsp to see what happens.

According the Chuck's calculator.

KNO3
1 gram = 0.18 tsp
1/8 tsp = 0.7 gram
1/4 tsp = 1.4 gram

KH2PO4
1 gram = 0.21 tsp
1/8 tsp = 0.6 gram
1/4 tsp = 1.2 gram

About Po4, I think that you should add it only if it is necesary. If you reach GSA the I suggest you add 0.1 ppm and see what hapend next week. If you reach it again you add 0.2 ppm and so on until you find the real consumption of your aquarium.
Anyone know the conversion to teaspoon for this?
 

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Discussion Starter · #57 · (Edited)
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

My 40gal contains: large amunt of anubias and java fern, dwarf sag, hornwort, frogbit, crypts, hygro polysperma and angustifolia.

I haven't get to the state of green spot algae yet. I have been adding 1/2 tsp of KNO3 for almost a week with nothing else. Thread algae doesn't seem to be dying or turning grey. This weekend I'll up another 1/4 tsp to see what happens.
Ok, make the 50% water change. Continue adding Kno3 but double until you reach GSA.

About Po4, you should prepare a solution, chuck's calculator has this option.
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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Ok, make the 50% water change. Continue adding Kno3 but double until you reach GSA.

About Po4, you should prepare a solution, chuck's calculator has this option.
Regards
Will do :thumbsup:

I have a 20h tank about to be setup. Lighting will be 48w T5HO. Do you recommend MCI protocol for non Co2 and shrimp tank?
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

My 40gal contains: large amunt of anubias and java fern, dwarf sag, hornwort, frogbit, crypts, hygro polysperma and angustifolia.

I haven't get to the state of green spot algae yet. I have been adding 1/2 tsp of KNO3 for almost a week with nothing else. Thread algae doesn't seem to be dying or turning grey. This weekend I'll up another 1/4 tsp to see what happens.
Ok, I understood you had GDA.
No all algae dies with the Kno3 protocol. Some remains but the bloom stops. Then you should kill them with H2O2 10% direct on the algae, no more than 20 ml every 20 gallons per day, Excel or simply to cut the leaves.
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Discussion Starter · #60 ·
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Will do :thumbsup:

I have a 20h tank about to be setup. Lighting will be 48w T5HO. Do you recommend MCI protocol for non Co2 and shrimp tank?
The MCI has prerequisites: light no less han 3 watts/gallon, Co2 no less than 25 ppm between others. If you have no enough light and Co2 it doesn't work.
Regards
 
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