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Discussion Starter · #81 · (Edited)
Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...

I still stay with my idea that potassium which is not really consumed by the plants, certainly not like phosphate and nitrate, build up in the water column to toxic levels for algae.
I was re reading Sorin last night. The problem with potassium sulphate is that when the sulphate is oxidized, it becomes sulfuric acid. In low ppms it allow the bloom of one algae I identified in the MCI, in a little bigger amount, you know.

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Discussion Starter · #82 ·
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

So far so good. I just found out I only need 3/4 tsp of KNO3 per week. That's half of what I had been dosing. Now I'm working on Phosphates.

My poor plants look like they are suffering from lack of Potassium, so hopefully this won't take long and I can get them back to good health.

-Dave
What kind of k deficiency you see?
Do you have hard or soft water?

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Davemonkey--how much GSA did you have when you arrived at your requirement of 3/4 tsp? Was it a lot or just a few spots?

I am on day 5 of the KNO3 protocol and some of my plants are starting to suffer as well (some holes and off-color leaves on my red lotus and blackening tips on my Heteranthera zosterifolia).
 

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Christian, what I'm seeing as Potassium defficiency (and I may be wrong, I just don't know what else it would be) is small soft spots developing in the lower leaves of my stem plants and throughout my epiphytes that do not have roots in the substrate (anubias and java fern). These spots gradually get bigger (almost like a fungal attack, but with a circular pattern rather than irregular shapes).

When it appeared on my epiphytes I thought first it might be micro defficiency since I have not dosed any micros in a couple months (my soil underlayer started releasing nutrients and every time I dosed micros I got very bad Green Water and GDA outbreaks). Really, I think I need to remove all my substrate and start over without the soil.

Roy (and Christian), maybe I misunderstood. I dosed KNO3 until I got Green DUST Algae appearing on the glass rather than Green Spot Algae. Coincidentally, I did get 1 or 2 new spots of GSA about the same time. Should I re-do?

-Dave
 

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Christian,

I think I will take your advise and not worry about magnesium/calcium so much. I have stopped adding k2hpo4 and reduced csm+b supplimentation to .134 grams or .156 ml per week (at water change time) giving me .05 ppm of fe per week. I don't know how much FE is in the tap water so I'll see what happens.

I have tested the presence of phosphate even without adding k2hpo4 so I can eliminate adding phosphate maybe permanently. If I can reduce cleaning GDA to once a week I will be happy. Cleaning GDA is still easier than cleaning GSA in my opinion.

Thanks for your help.

Henry
 

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

You dose KNO3 until you only have Green Spot algae. When I did this I kept my PO4 to 0.05ppm and have stopped dosing Potassium Sulphate as KNO3 has potassium in it. My potassium is now running between 10 and 15 ppm using a LaMotte test kit.

Once you have only GSA you dose KH2PO4 until that disappears.

The idea of this is to find the right amounts/balance of ferts so you dont have to overdose and do big water changes as with EI. Its is more of a type of PPS dosing IMO - at least thats how I'm approaching it.

The GSA I got on the front and side glass was very small compared to the GSA on the back of the tank. I cant belive the difference in the appearance of my plants.
 

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Discussion Starter · #87 ·
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Davemonkey--how much GSA did you have when you arrived at your requirement of 3/4 tsp? Was it a lot or just a few spots?

I am on day 5 of the KNO3 protocol and some of my plants are starting to suffer as well (some holes and off-color leaves on my red lotus and blackening tips on my Heteranthera zosterifolia).
When the heteranthera zosterifolia gets black this is because a deficiency of Kno3.

About the lotus, what kind of sustrate do you use?

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

MCI does make sense in my opinion, finding a balance. Since I used to add 2 ppm k2hp04, 5-10 ppm Kno3 and 10-15 ppm k2SO4 and doing 30 % water changes, I was probably in excess. Adding k2so4 was the first thing I stopped, knowing that I was getting potassium from kno3 already. I will have to use patience until I find that balance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #91 ·
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Eco Complete.
Ok, I use the same right now, so I know it.
Lotus has specially needs. The best is to put it in a plant pot with humus and sand. This way it can get all the Po4 it needs. However, plants shouldn't show deficiencies so fast, it means that they were not that well feed.

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Discussion Starter · #92 ·
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

I was re reading Sorin's again (page 55 and followings). The only useful reason for adding so much Fe is because it reduces the redox potencial (it reduces the chances of sulphates become sulfuric acid). But, it can be solved adding less sulphates. Then using just a little Fe, plants can uptake Fe and Po4 properly. Regards
 

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Discussion Starter · #93 ·
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Christian, what I'm seeing as Potassium defficiency (and I may be wrong, I just don't know what else it would be) is small soft spots developing in the lower leaves of my stem plants and throughout my epiphytes that do not have roots in the substrate (anubias and java fern). These spots gradually get bigger (almost like a fungal attack, but with a circular pattern rather than irregular shapes)
Potassium defficiency in microsorums is related to black spots. If the leaves get light brown, I saw this burns using calcium chloride. Regards
 

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Discussion Starter · #94 ·
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Potassium defficiency in microsorums is related to black spots. If the leaves get light brown, I saw this burns using calcium chloride. Regards
I was re thinking about this. You should do a 50% water change ASAP. Perhaps chloride is becaming
hydrochloric acid. I mention that adding 1 ppm or more of Fe is useless for fertilizing but helps to reduce redox potencial.
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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

I was re thinking about this. You should do a 50% water change ASAP. Perhaps chloride is becaming
hydrochloric acid. I mention that adding 1 ppm or more of Fe is useless for fertilizing but helps to reduce redox potencial.
Regards
YIKES! I'll change the water. Where would the chloride be coming from? I don't use calcium chloride, but I do have hard tap water. The only thing I add to the water is "StressCoat" dechlorinator, KNO3, KH2PO4, and CO2.

Might there be something in that soil I have under my substrate that is turning acidic? (It is plain topsoil from an area that used to be a flower a couple years ago. I have 1/4 inch of it under my SMS substrate. )

I HAVE noticed that after a water change, my water "feels" mostly neutral when I stick my hand in to trim plants. After a few days, though, I can actually feel some acidity on my skin if I'm working in the tank. I assumed this was from the CO2 lowering the pH over time between water changes. Perhaps I am very wrong. Maybe it also has something to do with the mysterious bio-film I get on my water surface. Hmmm.....

Thanks,
Dave
 

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Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Christian,

I have a 46 Gallon Bowfront with 156 watts of T5HO 2x6500K bulbs + 2x6700K bulbs for 7 hours per day. I have pressurized co2 with 4kdh drop checker at very light green. I am fighting GDA and have some BBA. I am starting the kno3 protocol this week.

What is your recommendation for how long I should run the lights?
 

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Discussion Starter · #97 ·
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

YIKES! I'll change the water. Where would the chloride be coming from? I don't use calcium chloride, but I do have hard tap water. The only thing I add to the water is "StressCoat" dechlorinator, KNO3, KH2PO4, and CO2.

Might there be something in that soil I have under my substrate that is turning acidic? (It is plain topsoil from an area that used to be a flower a couple years ago. I have 1/4 inch of it under my SMS substrate. )

I HAVE noticed that after a water change, my water "feels" mostly neutral when I stick my hand in to trim plants. After a few days, though, I can actually feel some acidity on my skin if I'm working in the tank. I assumed this was from the CO2 lowering the pH over time between water changes. Perhaps I am very wrong. Maybe it also has something to do with the mysterious bio-film I get on my water surface. Hmmm.....

Thanks,
Dave
If you have a problem with your substrate, usually it produces sulfuric acid. Take out a plant and see the roots, they should be black if you have sulfuric acid in the substrate.

About the "StressCoat", do you know the formula?

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Discussion Starter · #98 ·
Re: Method of controlled imbalances and gda...

Christian,

I have a 46 Gallon Bowfront with 156 watts of T5HO 2x6500K bulbs + 2x6700K bulbs for 7 hours per day. I have pressurized co2 with 4kdh drop checker at very light green. I am fighting GDA and have some BBA. I am starting the kno3 protocol this week.

What is your recommendation for how long I should run the lights?
Tropical days last 12 hours.

Ok, please read the comments about Ca:Mg and Po4 related to GDA.

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Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...

Well, the main idea behind the MDC is to reach the GSA for three reasons. 1) close to GSA no other algae can bloom 2) the amount of Kno3 your aquarium needs to reach the gsa is the real consumption of your aquarium per week. That's the amount you should use for fertilizing. 3) If you have any algae, if you look for gsa, the algae stop bloom or die.
Fertilizing in this way makes that is you test your water there is never more than 2.5 ppm of No3.
In my opinion, rigid rules like 10.1.15 makes no sense, diferents aquariums have diferents balances: 20.1.15, 5.5.15, or whatever.

The idea about to work only about Kno3 is because if you work with too many other variables, then you don't know how to induce a solution. And if you solve it, you don't know why it happend.

In the other hand, the idea is to use your plants as the filter of your aquarium.

The MDC is only a frame, as soon as you understand it you can use any fertilizing method you want without algae. At the forum of www.drpez.com many people use PPS or EI, etc.

In this thread you can read a little more (in english) about the MDC, this is an unfinished debate with Tom Barr (plantBrain):
http://www.drpez.net/panel/showthread.php?t=307546&page=2&pp=25
Regards
for the last 2 days i have tried to wrap my brain around this...i can't seem to grasp it...

first question as to the realization of the kno3 protocol: say GSA appears after 9 days, 7 of which were 1gr kno3/day, then a WC, then 2 days were 2gr kno3/day.
so what is the amount of kno3 my tank uses per week? 7x1gr + 2x2gr =11gr ???
what about the WC, how does that fit into the calculation?
what about other nutrients bottoming out during that period, doesn't that affect N uptake? then after resuming regular fertilization, N uptake will be higher again?

second question:
what if you start the kno3 protocol with very low P levels to begin with?
say your P bottoms out after 2 days and GSA appears? does that mean your weekly N consumption of the tank is only 2 x 1gr?

sorry if these questions are redundant, but i really do want to understand this, it makes a lot of common sense to me, just i can't grasp it logically.
 

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Discussion Starter · #100 · (Edited)
Re: Maracyn/gda experiment...

so what is the amount of kno3 my tank uses per week? 7x1gr + 2x2gr =11gr ???
In this case, yes, 11 grams. But this is a little tricky. You Know, we don't use such high level of Po4 (the same about Fe) in our aquariums so for me there are many new challenges because the water chemistry is complete different, with a lot of interferences. In our tanks one week is always enough.
mmmmmm, let me think.....the Kno3 protocol is another way to reset your aquarium, but a controlled one because I know where I am going.
If reaching the GSA (reseting your aquarium) takes quit long....I think we will have to find out together an answer :confused:.

what about the WC, how does that fit into the calculation?
When you change water you reduces No3 and Po4 as well.

what about other nutrients bottoming out during that period, doesn't that affect N uptake?
Not necessarily.

then after resuming regular fertilization, N uptake will be higher again?
The No3 uptake is dynamic. The generic protocol of the Kno3 helps you to find the real uptake and to create a healthy water chemistry. Then you are closer to reality and you can tune it up according to bioindicators. But then you have a reference not just speculation about uptakes. In the other hand, if the water chemistry is close to GSA then you have a algaeless tank.

But you question presumes other fertilization methods. Using MCI I don't suggest adding Po4 and K as a start point. Then, there is not a higher uptake later. You are presuming the later adding of those macros.

I think that they should be added if they are needed.

About Po4. Usually tanks produce enough. If this is not the case, then you will have GSA. Then you do the Po4 protocol and you find out how much you need (you can find it in the complete version of the MCI in Spanish). I had some cases where 4 ppm were neded but, if I test the water just before the light turns off, there was only 0.2. That's perfection! The day after I add Fe, only 0.1 but it will be uptake 100%.

About K. I don't like to add sulfates or chloride to the tank. Usually with the Kno3 there is enough "friendly" K. I explain before why sulphates and chloride are dangerous and how tricky they are with iron. Then, if you don't add K, the N uptake will be the same.

BUT, some plants has priority consumption of Po4, microsorums for example. There is a simple rule that usually works: plants from America usually uptakes more Kno3, plants from Africa and Asia usually uptakes more Po4. If you don't have unnecessary interferences (2 ppm of Fe for example) then you can add the Po4 just over the microsorums with a syringe and it will be uptaken properly.

second question:
what if you start the kno3 protocol with very low P levels to begin with?
say your P bottoms out after 2 days and GSA appears? does that mean your weekly N consumption of the tank is only 2 x 1gr?
That's a good question!
You know, everybody believes that No3 only can be uptake if there is K and Po4. And this is more or less true. But there is not a a directly proportional relationship between the uptakes. Every plant species has a different one.
This is the tank where I developed the MCI some years ago:



I never added K or Po4. Of course there were K in the tap water and the tanks produces Po4.

It was a 15 gallon tank and...let me remember...I used to add about 7 grams per week of Kno3.

This means that, even if you have low Po4, perhaps the Kno3 your plants needs can be bigger than you think.

sorry if these questions are redundant, but i really do want to understand this, it makes a lot of common sense to me, just i can't grasp it logically.
The MCI is an open debate, so feel free to ask, criticize, propose, give feedback, etc.

Regards
 
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