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Discussion Starter · #41 · (Edited)
Today a few rosy loaches I ordered weeks ago (before the trouble) arrived at the LFS. Not a very good moment and a big risk to put them in. And my quarantine tank is occupied. But I thought it would only increase the risk if they unbag them in the LFS and they stay there for a while so I took the gamble and went to get them. They are tiny and adorable, hopefully it will turn out fine. The other LFS were I bought the tests advised me to buy some Voogle as well. It's a natural product to boost the health of your fish when they are stressed/ill and you don't know why. No idea if it works but it's not a medication or harmful so now I can say I have done all I could think of. 馃槄

I managed to adjust something to the lamp so now it is lighting the whole tank a lot better, I don't know if you see it in the photo but the light is reaching the front a lot more. This takes away the pressure of buying a new lamp precipitately
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Mister or misses apisto (still don't know) is also showing more since yesterday. Coincidence or are things really going better? The galaxy rasbora is also behaving normally again 馃コ
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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
Umbrella palms shouldn't be submersed too deeply under water. Four to five inches max. You'll need to figure out how to hang them somehow.
You mean the plant sticking out on the right? That's an Acorus variegatus, it can be planted up to 40cm deep. I love the umbrella palm but haven't found a place where I can add it in a small container so it won't spread to much. Actually hanging it is not a bad idea. But I better wait a little bit if the ctenanthe, pothos and acorus are not taking away to much nutrients already. And I still have a peace lily in a bucket hoping it will make water roots. I'll probably gonna need more tanks 馃槃

I agree with @dwalstad that you have room for more aquatic plants.
Still more? I already added after @dwalstad suggested it. When I was at the LFS today I was tempted to buy more plants, there are so many beautiful ones, I would love to have an Echinodorus for example. But I could not think of a place were I can add it. There are some empty spaces between the plants, for example the lileaopsis and the hairgrass. But I figured that I need to give them some space to grow an spread themselves?

In between the rocks I have stuffed moss on multiple places with the intention that it will spread all over the rocks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
Sorry, I thought you had mentioned upstream somewhere a desire to buy an umbrella palm. I too, don't see much room for one, judging from the photos I see. I could also be mixing this up with another thread. LOL.
No worries, I did mention it indeed in another thread. Just haven't been able to put my desire into action 馃槃

Do you have a suggestion where I should put more aquatic plants? I would love to have an excuse to buy more species 馃槤
 

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I have a new hypothesis, but before I act and do something stupid I would prefer to have your advice...

Not totally sure, but I have the impression that every time I do a water change it only makes things worse. Especially the amano are showing that clearly: very often after a water change they disappear and stop eating. After a few days they start acting normally again. And maybe the fish didn't get better because of the esha2000 but because I didn't change the water for 3 days during that treatment??

The pile on the left is mainly rocks, but behind it is a base of expanded clay pebbles and small gravel, no dirt. As I said, I took the peace lily away because the roots started to rot, so nothing is rooting in there. What if the water has turned anaerobic there over time. If there is not much of a flow it will stay there, but whenever I change the water it will leak out of the pile into the tank. That could make everyone unhappy. I also notice that since the problems are there, the fish tend to hang out more on the right side of the aquarium. That could be a coincidence, or not...
Not sure about this theory, but could it be true?

And some more questions:
1: there is (to my knowledge) no organic material there so what will be the bad thing in the water inside the pile. Could it still be H2S? But from what? The symptoms of the fish do resemble (in a lighter version) what I saw when I had problems with anaerobic substrate. And it also explains why my cherries are still happily doing their thing, because they seem to cope better with that. Back then my fish were long gone and my cherries survived.

2: apparently the bad thing sticks around for at least a couple of days, how can I make it disappear faster?

3: what is the best solution. Could I scoop out part of the gravel and place the outlet of the powerhead there for more ventilation? Or will it blow so much misery into the tank that all fish will die?
I really like the ctenanthe, it is so beautiful. In this way I can leave it there but then not rooted into the gravel but with the roots hanging freely in the water and the powerhead underneath.
Alternative 1 is to scoop out part of the gravel and place rooting aquarium plants there, but it would mean I have no place for the ctenanthe and I would probably need a new light first because it's quite a dark corner.
Alternative 2 is to plant an umbrella plant in the gravel. But it would still mean I have no place for the ctenanthe and I don't know if the umbrella plant will find a way to escape from in between the rocks and spread its roots all over the tank. I've read its root system can be quite impressive, that is what I need now, but on the long term it could become a problem of its own?
The roots rotting away is normal as they are turning into aquatic roots, could always train it into an aquatic root plant outside the aquarium first if you're concerned about toxins. Lighting should be increased, over time you'll see the plants growing towards the center and leaving their corpses at the fringe as they head towards the light. Full coverage bar lights are much better to have even and consistent plant growth especially since the larger foliage plants will only increase in size creating dark areas. Two tiers of lights might not be bad or at least a consideration as time goes on: one for the larger plants and another closer to the water for the submerged ones.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 · (Edited)
The roots rotting away is normal as they are turning into aquatic roots, could always train it into an aquatic root plant outside the aquarium first if you're concerned about toxins. Lighting should be increased, over time you'll see the plants growing towards the center and leaving their corpses at the fringe as they head towards the light. Full coverage bar lights are much better to have even and consistent plant growth especially since the larger foliage plants will only increase in size creating dark areas. Two tiers of lights might not be bad or at least a consideration as time goes on: one for the larger plants and another closer to the water for the submerged ones.
Thank you for your input. I'm trying indeed to get the peace lily to create aquatic roots in a bucket to be sure. With the ctenanthe I had cut away most of the normal roots and it is forming aquatic roots already. The pothos hadn't any roots yet and is creating them now.

I agree on the lighting, I can see on the plants that it's barely enough now, so I'm looking for a full coverage light bar.

Meanwhile another whitecloud has died and two galaxy rasbora's seem to be unwell 馃槙. I think it must be an illness going around. If it was anyhting with water quality wouldn't they al go around the same time?
The advice of @Jorge Soirse to follow my gut feeling and @johnwesley0 not to panic but accept that these things happen are helping me out a lot so thank you for that 馃憤. Though it is sad to see your fish dying like this and I hope after this I will have any fish left...
 

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Discussion Starter · #48 ·
I noticed more fish starting to show symptoms today, so I decided to create a new temporary quarantine tank in a plastic container and take out all the whiteclouds and galaxy rasbora's to separate them from the rest hoping the other species will not start falling ill. And it gave me the opportunity to have a better look at them and to (try to) treat them. I have the impression that on some fish I see sort of tiny white hairlike things. Mainly on their head as far as I can see, but it is really hard to see because it is so small. Maybe some sort of parasite? Two galaxy rasbora's have one of their fins white and almost disappeared, not sure if that is illness or wounded. I'm doubting if I saw a tiny white parasite on my remaining apisto as well, I hope not, because it will be (near) impossible to catch it. And I don't want to lose it (nor any of my fish)
 

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I noticed more fish starting to show symptoms today, so I decided to create a new temporary quarantine tank in a plastic container and take out all the whiteclouds and galaxy rasbora's to separate them from the rest hoping the other species will not start falling ill. And it gave me the opportunity to have a better look at them and to (try to) treat them. I have the impression that on some fish I see sort of tiny white hairlike things. Mainly on their head as far as I can see, but it is really hard to see because it is so small. Maybe some sort of parasite? Two galaxy rasbora's have one of their fins white and almost disappeared, not sure if that is illness or wounded. I'm doubting if I saw a tiny white parasite on my remaining apisto as well, I hope not, because it will be (near) impossible to catch it. And I don't want to lose it (nor any of my fish)
Do you have any sort of waterflow? I just recently added an airstone to my 10 gallon and the corpses stopped piling up despite the Otocinclus and Shrimp showing signs everything was okay. I imagine being wild caught they are quite a bit tougher and used to low O2 and higher than 0 ammonium levels which can come and go as the tank is still stabilizing or when the substrate is disturbed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
Do you have any sort of waterflow? I just recently added an airstone to my 10 gallon and the corpses stopped piling up despite the Otocinclus and Shrimp showing signs everything was okay. I imagine being wild caught they are quite a bit tougher and used to low O2 and higher than 0 ammonium levels which can come and go as the tank is still stabilizing or when the substrate is disturbed.
Yeah I do, I have a powerhead creating flow and surface agitation.
Interesting observation though, here the oto's and cherries also seem very happy. The amano's not too bad as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
When the lights went on I caught my apisto smashing himself against the plants. So the theory of a parasite seems quite plausible. Also noticed the whiteclouds doing the same thing (wasn't too sure at first but this morning I saw it clearly). I started treating them yesterday with Esha2000. This morning the galaxy rasbora who seemed to be dying yesterday looked a bit better (but far from good). The first time I also had the impression they responded well to the treatment but it restarted. I'm still a bit reluctant to start Esha2000 again in the tank, so first a bit more research...

Tried to catch the apisto, but as I thought, this is going to be near impossible. So treatment will have to be in the tank. And besides that, probably the rosy loaches can/will be infected as well.

To be continued...
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
After some more research and advice I think it could be flukes. Already added Dactycid (a combination of Praziquantel and Levamisole) in the quarantine tank and then found this article of Diana which was very helpful (and luckily confirmed what I'm doing). If the treatment is succesful I will add it to my main tank. I want to be more sure first, because it will probably not do any good to my big population of blackworms...
 

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After some more research and advice I think it could be flukes. Already added Dactycid (a combination of Praziquantel and Levamisole) in the quarantine tank and then found this article of Diana which was very helpful (and luckily confirmed what I'm doing). If the treatment is succesful I will add it to my main tank. I want to be more sure first, because it will probably not do any good to my big population of blackworms...
Good luck! Fish diseases are the bane of the aquarium hobby.
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
Aquatic worms are vectors for all sorts of parasites if not quarantined for a long period of time and sourced from a clean environment.
Oh really, even tubifex and blackworms you buy at a LFS for feeding? That's being used at a large scale

Two blackworms that got accidentally tranferred tot the quarantine tank did survive the treatment though, so maybe I will still have my blackworms and tubifex but then parasite free 馃槃. And the fish seemed to be doing better. Less gasping, no hanging at the surface. So I just put them back to the main tank and added the dactycid there. It was interesting to see how they colored up in a few minutes, almost as if they recognized their old home. No idea if that is possible 馃槃

Mixed sounds about the safety of the dactycid for shrimp, varying from 'unknown so better not do it' in the manual to 'safe' in the manual of another brand which has the same two ingredi毛nts in two separate medicines. So I'm hoping for the best.
 

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Discussion Starter · #57 ·
Some positive news, the rosy loaches are so much fun and adorable. Very active and social. I only have 4 of them now but I will definitely add some more when things go better. They need to live in bigger groups, they are by far the most social fish that I have seen (not that I've seen that much species 馃槃)
Plant Organism Reptile Terrestrial plant Vegetation


I found a place to add an echinodorus bleheri. The piece of wood I added recently to replace an even bigger piece started to float up again. So I got angry with it and all of a sudden realised that I don't need it anyway, there is enough hardscape in my tank. It only takes space that can be planted and takes away the heteranthera zosterifolia which was clearly unhappy. So I replaced it closer to the light an put the echinodorus in the corner.

Water Plant Vertebrate Organism Underwater


Oh and more positive news, I discovered more juvenile cherries so they are doing fine. And I found out that I can change the water without making the Amano unhappy, I just needed to monitor the temperature difference better. I thought that I could do that by feeling with my hand, but the LFS told me I should really use a thermometer. I did that and they were probably right, it went a lot better. Those poor fish and shrimp having to deal with an inexperienced keeper 馃檮
So now let's hope the shrimp keep doing fine, that would be awesome
 

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Oh really, even tubifex and blackworms you buy at a LFS for feeding? That's being used at a large scale
Yeah, I would quarantine worms from the LFS too to break the parasite cycle. It's less frequent in infections but you don't really know how the worms are raised, massed produced.
I raise composting worms and they for sure don't have aquatic parasites.
 

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As what Green said: it could be parasites which are killing the fish which also explains their dying off individually instead of tank-wide extinction event. I believe I was having a parasite issue as well when my Tetras and Rasboras were being wiped out; it all came from the wild caught Otocinclus whom were not dewormed, did not even consider it at the time. All the younger fish were taken out one by one with what appeared to be swim bladder issues but the largest Rasboras seem to be fine and either: can handle the parasite as it works or were simply lucky enough to not catch it thus far since the smaller ones would isolate as they became sick. I grabbed some more Otocinclus yesterday and their stomachs are MASSIVE which I summed up to them potentially being female and pregnant but also considered not being lucky enough to have three pregnant Otocinclus. I have them in quarantine, the tank is available now, and am obtaining parasite juice today.
 

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Discussion Starter · #60 ·
I'm sorry to hear that your fish are dying too. My oto's have massive belly's as well, but I think they are just fat 馃槃. A few days ago I saw a photo of a pregnant oto and you could see the eggs.

It's been a few days since I treated with dacticyd and it's been a big difference. The fish seem pretty normal now. Very happy with it, although I'm still a bit worried if it will stay this way. The shrimp didn't like the treatment, but they survived. I will have to treat again in about 10 days and hopefully after that I will have some time to peacefully enjoy my tank.
However I will need to buy some new fish because several species I have need a bigger group than they are now. I will do some research if preventive treatment is a good idea. I don't want to go through all this again...
 
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