"New" Algae Killer
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I'm not a chemist so while I know roughly what a pipet is, can you post a link or picture that shows me what that is? I have been wondering how to target this stuff when I get it.
Bert, for a Nobel Prize I will keep detailed records, including photos! Now, what color Prius to buy today????
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pipette...like a miniature turkey baster. usually clear plastic tube with a bulb at the back. Unless you're talking about the glass laboratory pipette.
If it does work, could someone who bought some sodium percarbonate please share some? I really need a solution to get rid of my cladophora. PM me or post in Classifieds, please?
If it does work, could someone who bought some sodium percarbonate please share some? I really need a solution to get rid of my cladophora. PM me or post in Classifieds, please?
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The vendor selling this stuff says the only legal way to ship it is by UPS. That could be a problem for us trying to sell it and ship by Priority Mail. Except for that I would be happy to send some to somebody else. Now that I think about it, I think I could ship it through MailBoxes, which is a UPS shipping site, but what it would cost I have no idea.pipette...like a miniature turkey baster. usually clear plastic tube with a bulb at the back. Unless you're talking about the glass laboratory pipette.
If it does work, could someone who bought some sodium percarbonate please share some? I really need a solution to get rid of my cladophora. PM me or post in Classifieds, please?
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A Prius?! You gotta get a bigger car than that! You'll have lots of friends!
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Today is the big day! I received my sodium percarbonate last night, in good condition. So, I decided to start testing today. The parameters for my tank are:
45 gallon tank (nominal size)(about 35 gallons of water)
SMS substrate with underlayer of river silt
110 watts of GE9325K PC light raised 6 inches above tank, on 8 hours per day
Pressurized CO2
Water temperature 75F to 85F, depending on room temperature.
Water changed continuously, with dripping flow of inlet water, about 5 gallons per day.
Plants are:
Anubias nana petite
Anubias nana
Microsorum pteropus narrow leaf
Cryptocoryne wendtii, various varieties
Isoetes iacustris
Fish are:
2 - Yoyo Loaches
8 - "Lambchop" Rasboras
4 - Otocinclus
About 15 Guppies
About 4-5 Endlers Live Bearer
Hardscape is:
Structure of African bog wood roots
Small pieces of same wood, with plants tied to them
Filter outlet pipe
Filter inlet pipe
Drain fitting
Present condition of tank: Small BBA areas on some leafs, mostly anubias and Java ferns. Small amount on hardscape. Small areas of GSA on anubias and Crypt leaves. Small tufts of BBA on protruding old roots in substrate.
Fertilizing: By EI method, adjusted for daily dosing, with all fertilizers dosed at one time using two solutions, one of CSM+B+extra iron plus epsom salts, one of KNO3 and KH2PO4. Excel dosed at 10 ml per day, squirted on BBA areas under water. CO2 at bubble rate to keep drop checker in yellow-green area all day, off at night.
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Sodium Percarbonate recommended dosage - 1.5 Tablespoon per 100 gallons
For 35 gallons, recommended dosage is about 1.5 Teaspoon
First dosage, .5 teaspoon, will be sprinkled over wood structure, with filter and Koralia pump turned off, about one hour after fertilizing and feeding fish.
But, first I have been looking into what possible bad effects I might run into. Sodium percarbonate is a compound of sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide, which releases hydrogen peroxide when in water. The possible effects would be from the peroxide, from the sodium or from the carbonate. Sodium percarbonate is about 29% sodium, compared to sodium bicarbonate, which is about 27% sodium, so the effect of the sodium should be about the same as for dosing baking soda to raise the KH. Sodium percarbonate is about 38% carbonate, compared to sodium bicarbonate which is about 71% carbonate, so the increase in KH due to sodium percarbonate should be about half of that for baking soda. Neither of these is at all likely to be a problem, when dosed with amounts comparable to that used for baking soda to raise KH. Hydrogen peroxide can be a problem for plants, fish and algae, but it lasts only for a short time in the aquarium water, so it isn't likely that it will be harmful to the plants or fish, given that some people dose 3% hydrogen peroxide in their tanks routinely when trying to kill algae. But, this is the big unknown, where the effect of the sodium and carbonate are not unknown.
.5 teaspoon of sodium percarbonate will only raise my KH about .4 dKH.
I will measure my tank water KH, GH and pH before and after the test. I will decide whether to do a major water change after the test based on what I see in the tank.
45 gallon tank (nominal size)(about 35 gallons of water)
SMS substrate with underlayer of river silt
110 watts of GE9325K PC light raised 6 inches above tank, on 8 hours per day
Pressurized CO2
Water temperature 75F to 85F, depending on room temperature.
Water changed continuously, with dripping flow of inlet water, about 5 gallons per day.
Plants are:
Anubias nana petite
Anubias nana
Microsorum pteropus narrow leaf
Cryptocoryne wendtii, various varieties
Isoetes iacustris
Fish are:
2 - Yoyo Loaches
8 - "Lambchop" Rasboras
4 - Otocinclus
About 15 Guppies
About 4-5 Endlers Live Bearer
Hardscape is:
Structure of African bog wood roots
Small pieces of same wood, with plants tied to them
Filter outlet pipe
Filter inlet pipe
Drain fitting
Present condition of tank: Small BBA areas on some leafs, mostly anubias and Java ferns. Small amount on hardscape. Small areas of GSA on anubias and Crypt leaves. Small tufts of BBA on protruding old roots in substrate.
Fertilizing: By EI method, adjusted for daily dosing, with all fertilizers dosed at one time using two solutions, one of CSM+B+extra iron plus epsom salts, one of KNO3 and KH2PO4. Excel dosed at 10 ml per day, squirted on BBA areas under water. CO2 at bubble rate to keep drop checker in yellow-green area all day, off at night.
Sodium Percarbonate recommended dosage - 1.5 Tablespoon per 100 gallons
For 35 gallons, recommended dosage is about 1.5 Teaspoon
First dosage, .5 teaspoon, will be sprinkled over wood structure, with filter and Koralia pump turned off, about one hour after fertilizing and feeding fish.
But, first I have been looking into what possible bad effects I might run into. Sodium percarbonate is a compound of sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide, which releases hydrogen peroxide when in water. The possible effects would be from the peroxide, from the sodium or from the carbonate. Sodium percarbonate is about 29% sodium, compared to sodium bicarbonate, which is about 27% sodium, so the effect of the sodium should be about the same as for dosing baking soda to raise the KH. Sodium percarbonate is about 38% carbonate, compared to sodium bicarbonate which is about 71% carbonate, so the increase in KH due to sodium percarbonate should be about half of that for baking soda. Neither of these is at all likely to be a problem, when dosed with amounts comparable to that used for baking soda to raise KH. Hydrogen peroxide can be a problem for plants, fish and algae, but it lasts only for a short time in the aquarium water, so it isn't likely that it will be harmful to the plants or fish, given that some people dose 3% hydrogen peroxide in their tanks routinely when trying to kill algae. But, this is the big unknown, where the effect of the sodium and carbonate are not unknown.
.5 teaspoon of sodium percarbonate will only raise my KH about .4 dKH.
I will measure my tank water KH, GH and pH before and after the test. I will decide whether to do a major water change after the test based on what I see in the tank.
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My water tested at 6.2 pH, 2 dKH, and less than 1 dGH (softer than I expected). So, I added 1/2 tsp of sodium percarbonate, sprinkling it over the wood structure. It immediately began generating a mass of microbubbles:
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After 10 minutes this had decreased by over half, a few guppies were grazing on the bits of chemical left, and swimming through the bubbles. Some white scum was floating on the surface above the wood.
After 20 minutes the bubbling was reduced to about 10% of what it was originally, and my continuous water change system had skimmed off almost all of the white scum.
In 25 minutes there was very little fizzing going on so I restarted the filter, the Koralia and the CO2 injection. No fish seem the least bit distressed at this point.
After an hour has passed I will do my water tests again and decide whether to do a big water change then.
After 10 minutes this had decreased by over half, a few guppies were grazing on the bits of chemical left, and swimming through the bubbles. Some white scum was floating on the surface above the wood.
After 20 minutes the bubbling was reduced to about 10% of what it was originally, and my continuous water change system had skimmed off almost all of the white scum.
In 25 minutes there was very little fizzing going on so I restarted the filter, the Koralia and the CO2 injection. No fish seem the least bit distressed at this point.
After an hour has passed I will do my water tests again and decide whether to do a big water change then.
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After 75 minutes the tank looks just as it did when I started. I can't see any effect on the minor BBA on the wood, nor anywhere else in the tank. The pH is still 6.2, the GH less than 1, but the KH is up to about 3 dKH, as expected.
To get the water changed a bit faster I increased the flow on my continuous water change system to about 15 gallons per day. Now I think I will wait a couple of days to see if any fish show any ill effects, then try a full dose of 1.5 teaspoons, evenly spread over the entire water surface.
Eventually I will need to add some Equilibrium to raise my GH. I suppose I should test that more often.
To get the water changed a bit faster I increased the flow on my continuous water change system to about 15 gallons per day. Now I think I will wait a couple of days to see if any fish show any ill effects, then try a full dose of 1.5 teaspoons, evenly spread over the entire water surface.
Eventually I will need to add some Equilibrium to raise my GH. I suppose I should test that more often.
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post deleted by BryceM
At this dilution is it really cruelty to animals? How much does it increase the salinity in the short term and is the concentration of peroxide that results dangerous? One could say that keeping any pet in a cage, pen, or aquarium is cruelty but is there anyway to test if this is actually painful to the critters in the tank? My girlfriend flushes her sinuses with a mixture of sodium chloride and sodium bicarbonate and it helps her... I'm not saying it is the same thing but I would of assumed that putting either of these things up your nose would be painful and I was wrong about that. I know that they don't scream or cry or say anything is wrong but unless we know what the resulting dilutions of these chemicals in the water column are we can't say they are cruel or harmful.
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Post delted by BryceM
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On Planted Tank Tom Barr cautioned someone else who had bought the stuff to be very careful with it; that people have killed their fish with it. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/algae/75020-cant-get-rid-cladophora.html
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Post deleted by BryceM
Edward, that was an excellent explanation and now I understand. Is there anyway to neutralize the chemical if I were to treat my plants and driftwood in a separate tank, or could I rinse them enough to make it safe to put back in my aquarium. I guess if you have to remove the items being treated anyway, potassium permagnate would be the way to go then.
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I too am subscribing to this thread It will be very interesting to see how this works out in Hoppy's tank. As far as adding "toxic substances" to our tanks most of us do this every day. People kill their fish by overdosing Excel/Gluteraldehyde, injecting too much CO2, allowing toxic ammonia/nitrite to build up by not properly cycling their tank or doing insufficient water changes, etc. Hoppy, have you noticed any ill effects at this point from the Guppies that tried to eat the Sodium Percarbonate? If they actually ingested some of this I would think the effects would have been near immediate.
While I'm no where near a chemist a couple of things in the MSDS link Edward provided have me thinking it is not such a bad thing after being added to water and I could use a better explanation of the below wording (in red) that was cut and pasted directly from the MSDS:
♀Acute ecotoxicity:
►Fish, pimephales promelas, LC50, 70.7mg/L.
►Fish, Pimephales promelas, NOEC, 96 hours, 1mg/L.
LC50, doesn't this mean that half of the fish died at a sustained level of 70.7mg? How much do we need to add to achieve and maintain this level? Are we anywhere close to this level when adding it in the recommended amounts? What is the half life, minutes, hours, days?
I'm assuming that NOEC means all of the fish died after exposure to 1mg/L (1ppm) after 96 hours. Again, how much do we need to add to achieve and maintain this level and are we anywhere close to this level when adding it in the recommended amounts??
♀Abiotic degradation:
►Air: Not applicable
►Water: Significant hydrolysis.
►Degradation's products: sodium carbonate, carbon dioxide, bicarbonate, carbonate,
hydrogen peroxide.
►Soil: Hydrolysis.
With the exception of hydrogen peroxide, which people frequently use to combat algae, it would seem that the degradation products are not very toxic unless they are produced in significant quantities during the degradation process. Given the fact that Hoppy's KH only rose by 0.5 dKH, I would have to guess the carbonates and bicarbonates are not a factor and that a large amount of CO2 must be released during degradation. Is this in fact the issue with the toxicity of the degradation process?
♀Comments:
►Toxic for aquatic organisms. Nevertheless, hazard for the aquatic environment is limited due to produce properties.
►Not bioaccumuable.
►Abiotic degradation.
►Low toxicity of degradation products
To me it sounds like Sodium Percarbonate can be very toxic in it's dry form but once added to water it breaks down into non toxic byproducts that some of us already add to our aquariums...Sodium Carbonate, Carbon Dioxide, Bicarbonate and Carbonate which have a low toxicity according to the wording above. Am I incorrectly assuming this by reading the above wording from the MSDS? I would think most of us have those four items present in our tap water as well, though probably in lesser quantities than is produced by the degradation of Sodium Percarbonate.
:rant:I'm not buying into the "cruelty to animals" reference here. Granted, adding this chemical to an aquarium is a deliberate act by an individual but this whole hobby is nothing more than a deliberate act of "cruelty to animals" if we really want to think about it. We take fish from bodies of water that number anywhere from thousands to millions of gallons and put them in a glass box that rarely exceeds 200 gallons. Sure, I could live in an 8'x10' prison cell without ever going outside but how humane a life would that be?
I would imagine that hundreds of thousands if not millions of fish are killed each year during the catch, exportation, shipping and acclimation processes that are used to get them into our tanks so we can enjoy them. Even the fish used in the toxicity tests, Pimephales promelas, more commonly sold in LFS as the Rosy Red, is basically a fish grown to feed other fish and to test for toxicity levels of various chemicals in bodies of water. How cruel is that?
Honestly, what I find more disturbing than the "cruelty to animals reference", even if it was stated jokingly, is the fact that another human being would even suggest someone put this product in their eyes and then take a picture after reading the MSDS:
♀Irritation:
►Eyes, severe damage, rabbit.
Now that is just wrong! Let's all hope some young kid reading the forum doesn't get a hold of this, take it to school and toss it in the eyes of another kid who has been harassing him.:rant:
Sorry for the rant Hopefully someone can shed some light on the questions above so we can all have a better understanding on how Sodium Percarbonate works in our aquariums.
It will be very interesting to see how this works out in Hoppy's tank. As far as adding "toxic substances" to our tanks most of us do this every day. People kill their fish by overdosing Excel/Gluteraldehyde, injecting too much CO2, allowing toxic ammonia/nitrite to build up by not properly cycling their tank or doing insufficient water changes, etc. Hoppy, have you noticed any ill effects at this point from the Guppies that tried to eat the Sodium Percarbonate? If they actually ingested some of this I would think the effects would have been near immediate.While I'm no where near a chemist a couple of things in the MSDS link Edward provided have me thinking it is not such a bad thing after being added to water and I could use a better explanation of the below wording (in red) that was cut and pasted directly from the MSDS:
♀Acute ecotoxicity:
►Fish, pimephales promelas, LC50, 70.7mg/L.
►Fish, Pimephales promelas, NOEC, 96 hours, 1mg/L.
LC50, doesn't this mean that half of the fish died at a sustained level of 70.7mg? How much do we need to add to achieve and maintain this level? Are we anywhere close to this level when adding it in the recommended amounts? What is the half life, minutes, hours, days?
I'm assuming that NOEC means all of the fish died after exposure to 1mg/L (1ppm) after 96 hours. Again, how much do we need to add to achieve and maintain this level and are we anywhere close to this level when adding it in the recommended amounts??
♀Abiotic degradation:
►Air: Not applicable
►Water: Significant hydrolysis.
►Degradation's products: sodium carbonate, carbon dioxide, bicarbonate, carbonate,
hydrogen peroxide.
►Soil: Hydrolysis.
With the exception of hydrogen peroxide, which people frequently use to combat algae, it would seem that the degradation products are not very toxic unless they are produced in significant quantities during the degradation process. Given the fact that Hoppy's KH only rose by 0.5 dKH, I would have to guess the carbonates and bicarbonates are not a factor and that a large amount of CO2 must be released during degradation. Is this in fact the issue with the toxicity of the degradation process?
♀Comments:
►Toxic for aquatic organisms. Nevertheless, hazard for the aquatic environment is limited due to produce properties.
►Not bioaccumuable.
►Abiotic degradation.
►Low toxicity of degradation products
To me it sounds like Sodium Percarbonate can be very toxic in it's dry form but once added to water it breaks down into non toxic byproducts that some of us already add to our aquariums...Sodium Carbonate, Carbon Dioxide, Bicarbonate and Carbonate which have a low toxicity according to the wording above. Am I incorrectly assuming this by reading the above wording from the MSDS? I would think most of us have those four items present in our tap water as well, though probably in lesser quantities than is produced by the degradation of Sodium Percarbonate.
:rant:I'm not buying into the "cruelty to animals" reference here. Granted, adding this chemical to an aquarium is a deliberate act by an individual but this whole hobby is nothing more than a deliberate act of "cruelty to animals" if we really want to think about it. We take fish from bodies of water that number anywhere from thousands to millions of gallons and put them in a glass box that rarely exceeds 200 gallons. Sure, I could live in an 8'x10' prison cell without ever going outside but how humane a life would that be?
I would imagine that hundreds of thousands if not millions of fish are killed each year during the catch, exportation, shipping and acclimation processes that are used to get them into our tanks so we can enjoy them. Even the fish used in the toxicity tests, Pimephales promelas, more commonly sold in LFS as the Rosy Red, is basically a fish grown to feed other fish and to test for toxicity levels of various chemicals in bodies of water. How cruel is that?
Honestly, what I find more disturbing than the "cruelty to animals reference", even if it was stated jokingly, is the fact that another human being would even suggest someone put this product in their eyes and then take a picture after reading the MSDS:
♀Irritation:
►Eyes, severe damage, rabbit.
Now that is just wrong! Let's all hope some young kid reading the forum doesn't get a hold of this, take it to school and toss it in the eyes of another kid who has been harassing him.:rant:
Sorry for the rant
Hopefully someone can shed some light on the questions above so we can all have a better understanding on how Sodium Percarbonate works in our aquariums.
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I see threads like this where people experiment with various substances to kill algae and I just don't get it. The fact is that algae is not hard to prevent and is easy to eradicate if a tank is maintained properly. It's not hard! Somebody sent me plants one time that were almost totally covered with algae and after a few days, the plants were growing well and the algae was dead. I don't mean to be critical; I just think that a band-aid approach mindset is not a good one. Over reliance on stuff like megadosing Excel doesn't really help people in the long run. I sometimes use it in addition to pressurized co2 but only see it as a small part of the whole picture.
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I'll second that!
algae control isn't that bad, even when it catches up to you and you have a mess to deal with.
just like washing the dishes / doing laundry / sweeping floors and so forth, routine cleaning makes a world of difference between a nasty home (aquarium) and a clean healthy one. Also, sticking with a bad routine and hoping things will turn around someday is a losing strategy. yeah, I've seen every flavor of algae in my tanks at one time or another. But I make short work of it and adjust accordingly so it doesn't take over.
as a side note - I have a 'low tech' tank no CO2 / low light / etc that absolutely destroys GDA.
so when I get plants from people that are covered in the green dust or just mildly affected, they go in there for a day or two and then into the tank where I want to grow them out.
algae control isn't that bad, even when it catches up to you and you have a mess to deal with.
just like washing the dishes / doing laundry / sweeping floors and so forth, routine cleaning makes a world of difference between a nasty home (aquarium) and a clean healthy one. Also, sticking with a bad routine and hoping things will turn around someday is a losing strategy. yeah, I've seen every flavor of algae in my tanks at one time or another. But I make short work of it and adjust accordingly so it doesn't take over.
as a side note - I have a 'low tech' tank no CO2 / low light / etc that absolutely destroys GDA.
so when I get plants from people that are covered in the green dust or just mildly affected, they go in there for a day or two and then into the tank where I want to grow them out.
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Edward,
If you add CO2, KNO3, MKP, or virtually any other chemical to your tank you could be accused of the very same thing. EXCESS CO2, EXCESS KNO3, etc can cause discomfort and/or death, which is why we all carefully monitor those parameters. Hoppy knows what he's doing and is not going to intentionally torture his fish and to claim otherwise is absurd and inflammatory.
If you add CO2, KNO3, MKP, or virtually any other chemical to your tank you could be accused of the very same thing. EXCESS CO2, EXCESS KNO3, etc can cause discomfort and/or death, which is why we all carefully monitor those parameters. Hoppy knows what he's doing and is not going to intentionally torture his fish and to claim otherwise is absurd and inflammatory.
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OK. This thread (like any other) will be closed if civil conversation can't take place here. It would really be a shame, since there is certainly value in discussing an agent that might posses some beneficial anti-algae properties.
Look, constructive and useful discussion in an open forum can only take place within a framework of mutual respect. One can emphatically disagree with someones position without resorting to a personal attack. The best way to do this is to present evidence to support one's position.
Edward's argument (potential harm to animals) is poorly presented, but does raise a valid concern. With more careful wording, it might have encouraged a healthy discussion about the potential toxic effects rather inciting an emotionally charged exchange. We should all keep in mind that a remedy at one concentration is often a poison at another.
I happen to agree with Cavan's argument that we should all be focusing on providing conditions that don't favor the growth of algae. Even so, it doesn't hurt to investigate the benefits and limitations of a potential algicide. I frequently use a short course of Excel or erythromycin to restore things to a stable, healthy condition.
Look, constructive and useful discussion in an open forum can only take place within a framework of mutual respect. One can emphatically disagree with someones position without resorting to a personal attack. The best way to do this is to present evidence to support one's position.
Edward's argument (potential harm to animals) is poorly presented, but does raise a valid concern. With more careful wording, it might have encouraged a healthy discussion about the potential toxic effects rather inciting an emotionally charged exchange. We should all keep in mind that a remedy at one concentration is often a poison at another.
I happen to agree with Cavan's argument that we should all be focusing on providing conditions that don't favor the growth of algae. Even so, it doesn't hurt to investigate the benefits and limitations of a potential algicide. I frequently use a short course of Excel or erythromycin to restore things to a stable, healthy condition.
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Nicely put Bryce.
I too agree with Cavan but there are times when life gets in the way and our tank(s) has to take a back seat for a while. When things settle down and we are able to get back to the hobby we often need a remedy for algae that has taken over during our absence. Sure, manual removal and correcting the situation that brought on the algae are the best method but this can sometimes be difficult for someone new to the hobby to understand.
During the recovery stage, the use of E-mycin or Excel can be fairly expensive in comparison to Sodium Percarbonate. There may be merits for it's toxicity and I would like to have that explained a bit better because I simply just don't understand it. E-mycin, Excel/Gluteraldehyde, H2O2, and even the ferts we use can all be toxic if misused or overdosed. Even the fenbendazole that I have used successfully for planaria/hydra erradication in my shrimp tanks can be toxic if overdosed. If we are to safely use a new chemical such as Sodium Percarbonate, someone has got to experiment with it and I for one hope to hear more of Hoppy's experiment and what it's effects have been on his algae.
I too agree with Cavan but there are times when life gets in the way and our tank(s) has to take a back seat for a while. When things settle down and we are able to get back to the hobby we often need a remedy for algae that has taken over during our absence. Sure, manual removal and correcting the situation that brought on the algae are the best method but this can sometimes be difficult for someone new to the hobby to understand.
During the recovery stage, the use of E-mycin or Excel can be fairly expensive in comparison to Sodium Percarbonate. There may be merits for it's toxicity and I would like to have that explained a bit better because I simply just don't understand it. E-mycin, Excel/Gluteraldehyde, H2O2, and even the ferts we use can all be toxic if misused or overdosed. Even the fenbendazole that I have used successfully for planaria/hydra erradication in my shrimp tanks can be toxic if overdosed. If we are to safely use a new chemical such as Sodium Percarbonate, someone has got to experiment with it and I for one hope to hear more of Hoppy's experiment and what it's effects have been on his algae.
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