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Newbie here - Question about high CEC substrate and water column dosing

10K views 7 replies 3 participants last post by  niko 
#1 ·
Ok, I read everything on the PPS-Pro website, including the bit about substrate:

Substrate is what holds plants down, nothing more. Actually it is much more complicated then that, but we don't have to worry about it because aquatic plants can uptake all nutrients from the water column. So why are there nutrient rich substrates on the market? Well, if I didn't have any good fertilizer available then I go for such substrate to have better growth. Fortunately we have very good fertilizers today producing spectacular plants in any substrate, rich or inert, doesn't matter. Any substrate you may like for its color or shape from any company or only plain river sand or pool filter sand, they all grow perfect plants.
So, my question is regarding using a substrate with high cation exchange capacity (CEC) such as Eco-complete with PPS-Pro dosing.

As I understand things (please correct me if I'm wrong), a high CEC substrate like Eco-complete absorbs macro and micro nutrients from the water column. This allows them to store nutrients like a battery and release them slowly over time to the root systems of plants.

If I'm using PPS-Pro method in an Eco-complete aquarium, would my nutrient tests of the water column be accurate? I'm concerned about overdosing and ending up with too many nutrients, because the Eco-complete is absorbing too rapidly and my test kits are only testing the water column.

Does this even matter? Thanks for your responses.
 
#2 ·
That quote is ridiculous. The substrate is the main thing around which everything else revolves. Ignoring the substrate forces you to maintain the tank clean instead of using natural processes to do that. Noone that uses EI or PPS can let their tanks unattended for a few weeks because they go bad. Because things are not setup right. There are many more common sense arguments but I'm not going to talk about them here.

ADA tanks, ADG planted tanks, Bubble's tanks and many more rely on the substrate and its interaction with the fertilizers and the microorganisms:

http://bubblesaquarium.com/Aquascape/Aquascape Front PageF1.htm

Click on all of Bubbles galleries if you haven't seen them (from 2007 to 2010). There is a detailed info for every tank. None of these tanks maintain any testable nutrients in the water.

You are free to choose what's popular in the US - PPS and EI. Both of them are the reason why the two big US planted tank forums have ever active "Algae" subforums. Many people use EI and PPS for lack of something better. And there are many people that will defend both approaches. That does not change the fact that ignorance is wide spead and there are much better ways to run a planted tank.

Your question is the first time I see someone actualy asking about the interaction of substrate and fertilizers. Except that you are looking at things from the perspective of PPS which is way wrong. Meaning it will make for a nice looking tank but you will have no answers how to go about issues. You may find yourself being active on an 'Algae' subforum some day. Like many other folk.

So you are trying to maintain "certain" concentrations of fertilizers in the water and are worried that the "bad" substrate will suck them up and mess the PPS house of cards. Seems to me you are ready to consider a better approach to run a planted tank. Except that there is no info in English how exactly ADA runs their tanks. So we use EI and PPS... :)

--Nikolay
 
#3 ·
That quote is beyond ridiculous; it is willfully ignorant.

For an alternative view of the role of substrates in the aquarium, see Diana Walstad's Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, or visit the "El Natural" forum here on APC.

One of the things Walstad and ADA have in common is that both methods keep nutrients in the substrate and out of the water column. This is also the principle behind mineralized top soil. If a natural lake or stream had the water column nutrient levels found in a conventionally dosed aquarium, any fresh water ecologist would tell you that the lake is badly polluted.
 
#4 ·
Thanks for all the responses.

niko said:
So you are trying to maintain "certain" concentrations of fertilizers in the water and are worried that the "bad" substrate will suck them up and mess the PPS house of cards. Seems to me you are ready to consider a better approach to run a planted tank. Except that there is no info in English how exactly ADA runs their tanks. So we use EI and PPS...
I'm struggling with this because yes, I do know how ADA maintains their aquariums. You use Power Sand Special S underneath Aquasoil and a few very expensive "magic" powders like Bacter 100, Tourmaline BC, etc, then they still dose the water column with P and K.

The problem I see with ADA is that the Aquasoil loses potency after a couple years and you have to redo your tank.

Would you suggest a mineralized topsoil substrate instead?

There is so much conflicting information out there - aquasoil vs. eco-complete vs. topsoil. EI vs PPS-Pro vs. no dosing...

Everyone has success with different methods. So far I have only done tanks with Eco-complete and low-light, Flourish comp and Excel dosing. I would like to do a high-light Co2 method and I need to know the right way to do it.

Thanks for your assistance.
 
#6 ·
Thanks for all the responses.
...The problem I see with ADA is that the Aquasoil loses potency after a couple years and you have to redo your tank
After about 8-12 months any undisturbed tank enters a completely new phase. It doesn't matter what substrate is in it because the processes that normally take place in the substrate are now actually taking place. At this point both PPS and EI can claim they really work because look - the tank is clean and stable. The truth is that an established tank is a different thing altogether. The ADA system helps you from day 1 and does that with the tank stability in mind. PPS and EI just let you grow lush plants and stability is not even remotely discussed. But when ballance actually naturally happens they can claim it.

ADA provides more than one way to deal with the depletion of the substrate. The first way is through fertilizing the water VERY lightly but consistently - on a daily basis. The AquaSoil sucks these nutrients and should never get depleted. But if you run a lot of light and do not fertilize very often the AquaSoil will deplete. For some plants that's a problem and ADA sells both fertilizer granules and a tool to place them under the plant's roots. The main thing in all this sales-pich-like explanation is that ADA has answers to everything. PPS and EI do not. But they are easy to implement, many people follow them, and for most folk it does not matter that they make little sense.

Would you suggest a mineralized topsoil substrate instead?
I have no clue about it. Other folk know more than me. You will notice that they may not ever respond to you. This could be a good example of how much knowledge is out there but it is not always accessible.
In any case - knowing more about mineralized substrate will open the door to learn more about the processes that take place in a planted tank. Buying AquaSoil and digging for information how to use it properly is not as good as actually figuring things yourself. If you enjoy that of course.

There is so much conflicting information out there - aquasoil vs. eco-complete vs. topsoil. EI vs PPS-Pro vs. no dosing...
There isn't conflicting information. There is ignorance. Comparing apples and oranges.
For example the only thing that EcoComplete has that makes it good for a planted tank is it's porosity. Nothing else. Not a single thing. But it does work for many people. It works as good as playsand or $10/bag pool filter gravel, etc. Does it make sense to compare it to AquaSoil?

Everyone has success with different methods.
Depends how we define success of course.
Let me put it this way - if I didn't know Amano existed I'd call the plant growth in my tanks a success.
Or - maybe I don't care. I like my tank the way it is and that's all that matters.

Some folk like the equipment, some the variety of plants, some claim they are into it for the aquascaping only. I personally think that success is knowing how to replicate the development of a tank and through that achieve freedom to aquascape. For now, in the US, EI and PPS are both helping people get in this hobby (because they offer a dumb and easy way to grow lush plants without too much details and answers for the issues) AND hindering the progress of the US aquascaping.

--Nikolay
 
#8 ·
No problem except I don't think you have to use the PPS routine. The AquaSoil should absorb nutrients and feed the plants that way.

What you will be doing will work. But if you cannot leave the tank unattended for 7-10 days without it going bad then you will know you are maintaining it clean instead of using its natural capabilities. And after the tank has been established for more than a year please do not attribute its success to the magic PPS Pro.

As a side note - why is the latest (few years old that is) version of PPS called "Pro"?
There isn't a single professional aquascaper that uses it. "PPS Believe-it-or-not", "Deluxe", or "Neato" are good alternative names.

But plants love it anyway, no matter what I say! It's "made with" really good intentions.


--Nikolay
 
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