[MiamiAG]

Hello all,

DISCLAIMER: Admins, Mods, feel free to squash this thread if you like. People have become somewhat hostile when this topic has been discussed in the past. I'm attempting only to give some updates being that our friends at ADA seem to be carrying some of the Penac line now. Besides, I have my fire extinguisher handy in case I get flamed.

I have used some of the Penac products in the past and have had very good results. Better than when I didn't use the products? Hmm...probably. I can tell you I had less algae and the plants were stronger and brighter. Does that mean you should use Penac products? Well, no. What I hope you do is find out more about it. If it's interesting to you, test it out.

I found that Penac has a bad rap because of the "mojo-like" marketing pieces that are out there. One needs to understand that most of that was written for markets where people are much more receptive to such things than the US. Dig deeper and you may be intrigued.

Here is a piece on research that is being done: http://www.nuferscience.ch/www-support/reports/dossier_e.pdf. This website also has decent English descriptions: http://www.organicsa.co.za/Products/Penac/penac.html.

Lastly, look into the use of organics and minerals in hydroponic culture.

 

[MiamiAG]

Hey, thanks for the comment TFML! Didn't have to use the extinguisher!

With all due respect to Mr. Barr or whoever did the testing, perhaps we can think through this a little bit and see about finding some valuable nuggets of truth/fact that we can use. Mind you, I don't have a vested interest in anyone buying the Penac products. I do have a vested interest in helping to expand the boundaries of this hobby.

Allow me to share my perspective from many years in this hobby. I have come to realize that there is still MUCH we don't know about aquatic plants and their long-term cultivation in the aquarium. I would suggest to you that we can always try to better understand by studying how these plants grow in nature.

In nature, most aquarium plants grow in what is now being termed "Living Soil." That is, the soil they grow in is full of organisms (fungi, bacteria, worms, etc.) some of which are very important for cycling key nutrients. We have no clue what others do. However, we do know that plants grown in living soil do much better than plants grown in inorganic or non-living soil.

In addition to the substrate ecosystem, living soil is rich in minerals that provide both major and minor nutrients. These nutrients play an important role in long-term plant development in conjunction with the substrate ecosystem. The soil becomes a nutrient storehouse for plants.

One of the Penac products, as our friend quite rightly pointed out, is very similar to bentonite. Bentonite is used as kitty litter because of its capacity to absorb but it is also used as a very beneficial amendment to soil to enrich it. It's mineral composition is very interesting for plants. It's cation exchange capacity is also very beneficial as it functions as a nutrient storehouse for plants.

So, if I took the sterile substrate that we typically use for our aquariums and sprinkled bentonite (or a substance that will increase it's CAC and provide a series of minor nutrients), is this a bad thing? I think not. What I would be doing is helping to transform my sterile substrate into a nutrient storehouse for my plants and providing for the long-term success of the aquarium.

What do you think? Good alternative to sacrifices to the plant gods?

 

[MiamiAG]

Hi Hoppy!

We are still studying ways to improve crop yields, my friend. A lot of study is going into the impact of the substrate ecosystem.

About those rice farmers, www.cgiar.org/pdf/10_cn_ait.pdf look at the second page, third paragraph. The use of bentonite to increase yields.

More info: http://english.vista.gov.vn/english...759695/200610092709688330/200610095403902578/
http://www.handsontv.info/series6/03_Green_Beginnings_reports/report3.html

 

[MiamiAG]

Hey Robert,

Stepping out of the way of your Barr comments.

My point is that some of the Penac products are being used today in many areas. Unfortunately, because of the marketing they've had, it's become mumbo jumbo to English-speaking aquarists.

And, yes, I meant CEC. It is important if we are planning our aquariums on a long-term basis. If your focus is on aquascaping and taking a picture a few months out then redoing it, you don't need to take a long-term view.

 

[MiamiAG]

Hey, thanks for the replies all. That's what I like to see, some real passion about the subject.

Lets see. First, don't get stuck on the english translations. They are garbage and geared to a different part of the world where 80% of the people practice tai chi. I don't want to get into a discussion as to whether tai chi is good for you because it centralizes you chi and improves your body's flow of energy. In the US, this type of thinking doesn't go over well (yet...). However, can we not agree that tai chi has some real benefits (tangible, perhaps?) that we can agree with (e.g., relaxation, focus, etc.)?

Similarly, Penac products (German engineered, btw) are tagged with a lot of mysticism that we are not accustomed to. However, most of the products do have some tangible benefits we can measure and appreciate. For example, Penac W is essentially a type of bentonite clay that, when added to your substrate, will increase it's CEC and add needed micro nutrients/minerals. Penac K adds minerals plus organics.

In my opinion, what Penac has done is taken items that are very beneficial and sprinkled some marketing pixie dust on them in order to sell more of them in certain parts of the world. That doesn't work here.

Likewise, ADA initially had marketing mumbo-jumbo on all their products. I had a hell of a time trying to translate their catalogue and product instructions because they focused on harmony, balance and nature rather than on hard facts about what they contained. It's the same thing here.

 

[MiamiAG]

LOL, Bert! That's awesome.

While I would love to conduct a proper study, I fully admit to not having the $$ to do it correctly (i.e., all ADA products). Besides, if I may borrow a phrase from some friends that play World of Warcraft, the experiment would quickly "pull wife aggro resulting in immediate pain and, likely, death."

The point of this post, however, was to remind folks to think through products as they come to the market. I can't tell you how difficult it was for me when I first brought ADA products to the US. Can you imagine trying to sell "Brighty K", Phyton Git and ECA? Yet, these are some of the best products I have ever used.

I remember a time when we all thought the Internet was some crazy thing between nerds...

 

[MiamiAG]

Orion,

I confess that I did not conduct a scientific analysis of my use of Penac with the eye of having others replicate. I did, in fact, observe a difference when I used it. The two tanks I used it on have been my best growing tanks to date.

I've been doing planted aquariums for a long time so my variables tend to be pretty steady. Moreover, subsequent tanks to the above where setup with mostly ADA products and shoots/trimmings from the plants used in the above tanks. Everything was re-used except the Penac products because I simply ran out of one and misplaced the other.

In the end, I think my point has been flushed out.

 

[MiamiAG]

I think you're missing the point and getting caught up in the marketing mumbo jumbo.

Nobody is telling you to spend any money on ADA or Penac products. And, like you, if I don't understand what's in something, I won't add it to my tank. However, I won't discard a product unless I put some thought into it, especially if it comes from a respected company such as ADA.

The reality is that one of the Penac products is simply bentonite. Wonderful! Go do some research in the field and you'll find plenty of research studies conducted on the material. It is beneficial for your substrate.

The next step is simply to determine if you want to give it a try. If you do, you have a choice- purchase the product with bentonite or purchase bentonite directly. Obviously, purchasing bentonite directly will be cheaper. However, you will not have the benefit of all of the homework that ADA has done on such things as quantity, etc.