Aquatic Plant Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 100 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,035 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Please see the newer version PPS v.2005

--------------------
Perpetual Preservation System v.2004 by Edward.

Many aquatic hobbyists are looking for this method that doesn't require large water changes. The reason may be time or size of tanks. This system also works with periodic and random water changes.

Entering elements proportionally allows one to perpetually preserve an optimum balance of nutrients. A fixed ratio of elements, dosed every day at very small quantity to maintain desired concentration in the water column. Twice a month or so, testing only for NO3 and PO4 determines what to dose the following month.
--------------------
Standard Dosing:
NO3 - 0.75
PO4 - 0.25
K - 1.00

Mg - 0.10
--------------------
If testing of water column gives elevated NO3 level, then switch to NO3-FREE Dosing:
NO3 - 0.00
PO4 - 0.25
K - 1.00

Mg - 0.10
--------------------
If testing of water column gives elevated PO4 level, then switch to PO4-FREE Dosing:
NO3 - 0.75
PO4 - 0.00
K - 1.00

Mg - 0.10
--------------------
--------------------
Solutions can be made as follow, K2SO4, KNO3, KH2PO4, MgSO4, CaCl2 and TE (trace elements).

Standard solution
0.75:0.25:1.00 (NO3:pO4:K)
KNO3 - 20.38 g
KH2PO4 - 5.97 g
K2SO4 - 15.74 g
in 500ml


NO3-FREE solution
0.00:0.25:1.00 (NO3:pO4:K)
KNO3 - 0.00 g
KH2PO4 - 5.97
K2SO4 - 33.30 g
in 500ml


PO4-FREE solution
0.75:0.00:1.00 (NO3:pO4:K)
KNO3 - 20.38 g
KH2PO4 - 0.00 g
K2SO4 - 19.56 g
in 500ml


Ca solution (for RO users only)
0.2 (Ca)
CaCl2 - 12.22 g (CaCl2 2H2O, Calcium Chloride Dihydrate)
in 500ml

Mg solution
0.1 (Mg)
MgSO4 - 16.90 g
in 500ml

These solutions make rated ppm at 3 ml / 100 l. Example: solution 0.75:0.25:1.0 at 3 ml in 100 liters make 0.75 ppm NO3, 0.25 ppm PO4 and 1.0 ppm K.
Dosing the same amount of ml, NO3:pO4:K:Mg solutions, make the most balanced nutrient spectrum.
--------------------
How to start:

1. Test for NO3 and PO4, make notes.

2. Keep dosing every day Standard and Mg solutions for 1 week. Test for NO3 and PO4 at the end of the week.

- If the ratio and levels are acceptable then continue the same dosing following week.
- If the levels are high, start dosing less ml the following week.
- If the ratio is wrong, discontinue the Standard solution and replace it with NO3-FREE or PO4-FREE solution. Keep dosing the following week then test again.

For 50 gallon tank at 1 Wpg Watt per gallon, dosing 3 ml every day keeps nutrients steady. For 130 gallon tank at 3 Wpg Watt per gallon, dosing 12 ml.

3. TE Trace elements is a separate issue. The best way is by observing plants for signs of deficiency, pale new growth. If that happens increase daily dose of the TE solution. Dosing 5 drops a day in 130 gallon tank at 3 Wpg Watt per gallon does the job. Overdosing is not beneficial.

TE Solution
0.1 (Fe)
TE - 23.81 g
in 500 ml

The CSM-B or Plant-Prod® Chelated Micronutrient Mix http://www.plantprod.com/catalogue/04Micronutrients.html can be used.

4. To increase KH use CaCO3.

5.To increase Ca use CaSO4, Mg use MgSO4. Ratio Ca:Mg of 4:1 is done by dosing a mix of dry 1.5 g CaSO4 and 1.0 g of MgSO4.

This system is efficient and easy to do.
Thank you for your time,
Edward
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
852 Posts
Adding 3 parts KNO3, 1 part KH2PO4, and 2 parts K2SO4 to any volume of water will give you approximately the same percentage ratio of ingredients:

NO3: 37.211%
PO4: 12.714%
K+: 50.07%
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,035 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Error said:
Adding 3 parts KNO3, 1 part KH2PO4, and 2 parts K2SO4 to any volume of water will give you approximately the same percentage ratio of ingredients
Yes, that's the same ratio, dry weight, 3:1:2.
How do you like it? How do you use it?
Can you give more details, your experience.

Thank you
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
852 Posts
I have been using it since I came across the original thread, though I erroneously added 4 parts K2SO4 instead of 2 for the first couple of dosings, which is why I posted my last post :)

I literally added 1.00:.75:.25 with dry ingredients, gave me a lot more K+ than I wanted. I think N crashed as a result.

Growth seems to be ramping up a little...it's too early to tell, I think.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
852 Posts
Also, I am having trouble gauging traces. Plus, it's a soil substrate (as far as I can tell, it's entirely depleted). 5.5wpg w/CO2...and I dose the same ratio but dry.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
852 Posts
How are you measuring these grams of yours? Not many people have scales...I sure don't. Are you using spoons of some variety?

Also, could someone make a solution using just the 3:1:2 (say, teaspoons) ratio in 500 ml? How would one know how much to dose?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,988 Posts
Error, I just bought a gram scale that should come next week. I got it from a "store" on ebay that deals specifically in scales. There are a lot of pocket digital gram scales out there. Many will do up to 500g, are acurate to .10g and mine was less than $30 with shipping. You can get cheaper ones that weigh less in the $20 range. Sorry that sounds like and infomercial, I have never used one before.

YOu could use the 3:1:2 ratio with any measurments. If you want to use teaspoons then use Chuck Gadd's calculator and figure out the pm per ml added to your tank. You would have to figure out each nutrient individually but that would work fine.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,035 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Error said:
Also, I am having trouble gauging traces. 5.5wpg w/CO2...and I dose the same ratio but dry.
Trace elements dosing is individual. Some people like more, some less. There is many commercial products available. Personally I use Plant-Prod® Chelated Micronutrient Mix, http://www.plantprod.com/catalogue/04Micronutrients.html ,
Mn - 2.00 %
Fe - 7.00 %
Zn - 0.40 %
Cu - 0.10 %
B - 1.30 %
Mo - 0.06 %

24 g - in 500 ml makes 0.1 ppm Fe at 3 ml / 100 l, same as all my solutions

Dosing regardless the size of tank, 1 drop a day up to 1 Watt per gallon, and 4 drops a day at 4 Watt per gallon. Watching the colour of plants gives good indication how much to dose.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,035 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Error said:
How are you measuring these grams of yours? Not many people have scales...I sure don't. Are you using spoons of some variety?
I don't use spoons because inaccurate results. Some dry chemicals come as powder, some as pellets. It's best to use a digital scale. Any $30 postal scale will do. Try search on Sunbeam Digital Electronic Postal Scale Item Number 478657. Staples, Business Depot and so on.

How to make the 5.97 g of KH2PO4?
Dissolve 50 g of KH2PO4 in 500 ml. Take 59.71 ml of this solution, which is exactly 5.97 g of KH2PO4.

Also, could someone make a solution using just the 3:1:2 (say, teaspoons) ratio in 500 ml?
As long as you don't go over the maximum solubility limitation.
Maximum solubility / 100ml
KNO3 35.7g
KH2PO4 22.0g
K2SO4 12.0g
MgSO4 35.6g

The scale is no problem. If anyone needs, I can send all the dry weighted nutrients by mail. Send me a message, let me know. You can add the water.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,069 Posts
Edward:
Try non CO2 tanks, no water changes for years.
The lower the lighting, the more nutrient "wiggle" room you will have.
I know some of your tank have low light.

I've seen a tank that did not have any changes for over 2 years with Discus that were breeding.

The inputs will be fish food/plant decay and the export will be plant cuttings/filter cleanings.

You can add something like SeaChem Equibrium and some tiny amounts of KNO3/KH2PO4 to make up for low fish loads.

But light is the best method to slow down rates and allow for the plants time to take in enough nutrients to produce good healthly growth.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
676 Posts
Edward,
Your method definitely piques my interest as the thought of 50% weekly water changes on my 125g tank really does not appeal to my sensible side. But I'm not quite sure I understand your dosing measurements.

You state that the solutions provide rated ppm levels at 3 ml /100 l, yet for a 130g (492 l), 3wpg tank you recommend only 6 ml which is less than half the rated dosage. This in a growing condition where I would expect the need to supply additional nutrients to the tank. Can you please clarify the reasoning behind this?

Finally, when you do your monthly testing are you looking for a specific ppm reading for NO3 and PO4 or just a 3:1 ratio?

Thanks.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,035 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
plantbrain said:
Edward:
Try non CO2 tanks, no water changes for years.
Tom,
you want me to try non CO2 tank at 4Wg Watts per gallon?
Ludwigia Inclinata and Rotala Macrandra says why?

Edward
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,035 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
bharada said:
I'm not quite sure I understand your dosing measurements.
This system is almost as simple as feeding fish. I am not good at explaining things.

You state that the solutions provide rated ppm levels at 3 ml /100 l
This is for reference only, so we know what to expect. This tells us the ratios and concentration. No blind dosing.

The dosage quantity ml depends on the last NO3 and PO4 test. Dose every day very small quantity. On the end of the first week test water in the tank for NO3 and PO4. If too high, lower the daily dose. If not enough, increase the daily dose.
This will get stabilized and create predictable condition in 2-3 weeks.

Finally, when you do your monthly testing are you looking for a specific ppm reading for NO3 and PO4 or just a 3:1 ratio?
Looking for both, NO3 and PO4 ppm levels and also for NO3:pO4 ratio. You don't want 3:1 ratio in the water column.
To maintain stable water column ratio NO3:pO4 of 10:1, you need to use dosing ratio of 3:1 because plants take the PO4 faster then NO3.

What you want is to have measurable NO3 and PO4. By dosing every day you never run out of nutrients.

Practical example of 130g at 3Wg Watts per gallon. Solutions to dose:
01.day - Standard 6ml, Ca 6ml, Mg 6ml
02.day - Standard 6ml, Ca 6ml, Mg 6ml
03.day - Standard 6ml, Ca 6ml, Mg 6ml
04.day - Standard 6ml, Ca 6ml, Mg 6ml
05.day - Standard 6ml, Ca 6ml, Mg 6ml
06.day - Standard 6ml, Ca 6ml, Mg 6ml

07.day - Test for NO3 = 25 ppm, PO4 = 1 ppm, (change the dose from 6ml to 2ml)
08.day - Standard 2ml, Ca 2ml, Mg 2ml
09.day - Standard 2ml, Ca 2ml, Mg 2ml
10.day - Standard 2ml, Ca 2ml, Mg 2ml
11.day - Standard 2ml, Ca 2ml, Mg 2ml
12.day - Standard 2ml, Ca 2ml, Mg 2ml
13.day - Standard 2ml, Ca 2ml, Mg 2ml

14.day - Test for NO3 = 10 ppm, PO4 = 1 ppm, (change the dose from 2ml to 4ml)
15.day - Standard 4ml, Ca 4ml, Mg 4ml
16.day - Standard 4ml, Ca 4ml, Mg 4ml
17.day - Standard 4ml, Ca 4ml, Mg 4ml
18.day - Standard 4ml, Ca 4ml, Mg 4ml
19.day - Standard 4ml, Ca 4ml, Mg 4ml
20.day - Standard 4ml, Ca 4ml, Mg 4ml
21.day - Test for NO3 = 10 ppm, PO4 = 1 ppm, (change not needed)
22.day - Standard 4ml, Ca 4ml, Mg 4ml
23...


Thank you for your questions,
Edward
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
215 Posts
Edward said:
07.day - Test for NO3 = 25 ppm, PO4 = 1 ppm, (change the dose from 6ml to 2ml)
14.day - Test for NO3 = 10 ppm, PO4 = 1 ppm, (change the dose from 2ml to 4ml)
How do you explain your accrual of a 25/1 N/P ratio while dosing a 3/1 ratio solution?

How do you explain no change in tested PO4ppm with 3 different volumes of daily standard solution?

Is your return to estimative index target numbers in this last post just coincidental?

What are your feeding and water change habits?
___
Jeff
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,035 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
How do you explain your accrual of a 25/1 N/P ratio while dosing a 3/1 ratio solution?
Dosing once NO3:pO4 10:1 gives approximately 10:1 ratio in the tank on the end of the 10th day. But, dosing 10 days 1:0.1 gives usually 5:0 ratio after 10 days. The dosing ratio is not the same with daily dosage program as with the over fertilize and flush program.
How do you explain no change in tested PO4ppm with 3 different volumes of daily standard solution?
The first week NO3 and PO4 raised as 6ml was too much of a dose for the plants to handle. Values elevated to 25 ppm and 1 ppm. The dose was changed from 6 ml to 2 ml to regulate/slow nutrient levels. Lower K slowed PO4 uptake and also accumulated PO4 in plant mass from previous week did not require more PO4 to be taken. This is why PO4 level remains unchanged. Following week NO3 was down to 10 ppm and falling. To regulate levels, dosage was changed from 2 ml to 4 ml. From this point the higher K pushed plants for more PO4 uptake. Levels are now at desired values, exactly where we want them to be.
Every start of a regulated closed loop comes with swings ups and downs.

NO3 uptake remains at slow continuous rate, but PO4 is taken fast and used later by plants. In reality, even with dosing ratio of 3:1 the water column is at 10:0.1. Plants take more PO4 then they need and use it later. Running PO4 0 ppm in water column is not bad as long as some PO4 is being dosed daily.
Is your return to estimative index target numbers in this last post just coincidental?
The NO3 and PO4 levels depend on test kit ability. We need to distinguish between None / Some / Excessive. For my test kits, it's 5-10 NO3 and 0.25 PO4. Red colour ratio and personal preference is an option too. This is an open system allowing any levels. See the NO3-FREE and PO4-FREE solutions. These can be used to correct ratio errors without water changes or to fine tune the water column as desired.
What are your feeding and water change habits?
We have some tanks with no fish and some with light fish load. Not using tap water, RO only. Testing is being done continuously on all tanks for 10 years. No water changes done for months, many months. The fish, plants and I hate water changes.

Thank you Jeff,
Edward
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,116 Posts
Edward,

I find this thread very interesting. Saying that you've ran your tanks in the described manner for 10 years now made me post this;

I hope that I don't sound overly excited but what do you think about writing an article explaining your approach? As I understand submitting articles is up to us and it is not really solicited by Art.

Yes, most of the information about your method is already on the forum, but it's in different threads, including the photography section.

--Nikolay
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,035 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
niko said:
Edward,

I find this thread very interesting. Saying that you've ran your tanks in the described manner for 10 years now made me post this;
Niko, I wish. There was many years of struggle. I remember 10 years ago we could grow one leaf in two days on Echinodorus, but it died one week later. With all the CaNO3, K2SO4, KNO3, KH2PO4, MgSO4, TE, etc. from hydroponics and greenhouse industry, we just couldn't figure it out. It was CO2 we did not have at sufficient level.
hope that I don't sound overly excited but what do you think about writing an article explaining your approach?
Maybe I could put it together.

I hope more people try it and help to improve this system even further.

Thank you Niko,
Edward
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,623 Posts
Try non CO2 tanks, no water changes for years.
You might find this interesting

On Wet Thumb, Diana Walstad made the following statement,

The 55 gal with potted plants that I set up in March has for the last month been showing reduced plant growth; algae is starting to grow on the glass and some of the plants. While fish are doing great, I felt it was time to take action.

I measured nitrates and they were very high, 60 ppm or higher. The problem for plants may simply be salt accumulation. This increased salinity (from nitrates, chloride, sodium, etc) may have inhibited many plants. The water hardness has not changed, probably because these ions may precipitate (much calcium will precipitate as calcium phosphate or calcium carbonate) and be removed from the water.

In any case, I changed 70% of the water.

Please realize that this tank has gone for over 6 months with the same water that I set it up with. Thus, while I advocate infrequent water changes, there are times and situations where changing the water is a good idea.

Let common sense be your guide.
Diana has been the champion of no water changes
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,069 Posts
Robert Hudson said:
Try non CO2 tanks, no water changes for years.
Diana has been the champion of no water changes
Yep, the easiest method there is. Wish more would do that method.
Slow your rates down, then you don't have to do much at all.
You can also use external plant filtration and not do water changes for years.

Adding CO2 changes the rate of growth and the rate of uptake. Similarly, adding more light does the same thing till you become CO2 limited.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 
1 - 20 of 100 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top