[LindaC]

I'm curious as to why the leaves on my Ammania gracilis are starting to grow in curled and stunted, is this a lack of a specific fert? Also in the same tank I have some Weeping Moss on driftwood and the moss is turning brown. It was growing very nicely at one point.

Any ideas?

 

[kekon]

The problem you've described is mainly caused by calcium deficiency. Even there is plenty of Ca in the water column (say 40..50 ppm) some plants may show lack of calcium. One of such factors is Mg excess, K or nitrogen excess. I know many folks would not agree with me that N excess can induce Ca deficiency but i had evidences of that. I've been always told that curled leaves and stundted tips are caused by low NO3, CO2, PO4 - but i can honestlyu say that it was not the case. Some day i dosed much more NO3 - about 10 ppm. The target was 20 ppm NO3. In 3 days after dosing some plants nearly died. It was a clear sign that high NO3 (with "cooperation" of high K) cause terrible stunting. So i stopped doing NO3. When NO3 dropped below 5 ppm affected plants were "resurrected"
However, some other plants showed N deficiency.

 

[Intros]

I believe that the Boron deficiency also causes curled leaves apparency.

 

[kekon]

I believe that the Boron deficiency also causes curled leaves apparency.

It does, but we must know what doses and what fert is used to confirm that.
Anyway boron deficiency appears very seldom.

 

[pbohart]

Two threads on plantedtank.net

both starated by me - both coming to the same conclusion (although my problems were with A. Senegalensis and R. Macranda)

Problem = too much light. In fact, in one of the threads 4 or 5 people chimed in about A.S. - all having burned or curled tips due to WPG exceeding 3.

In the other thread - one of the Sr. members talked of 3 identical tanks - only separated due to GH/KH. From that experimetn it was deduced that MG/CA have no effect on red/sensitive plants whatsoever.

FWIW.

 

[AaronT]

You all could be correct. Leaves curling are usually a mineral defficiency of some sort; calcium, magnesium or potassium are the most likely culprits. How soft is your water?

 

[Yukilovesfish]

I had a similar experience with my ludgwigia last week but I thinking the cause could have been due to a calcium deficiency. I recently set up my tank with ada aquasoil and power sand so I have been doing 50-60% water changes twice a week. Last week I only added the Equilibrium and MGSO4 once during my Sunday water change and by the end of the week the new growth was all curled up and stunted.

Yesterday I added both back in for my second water change of the week and I noticed by the end of the night they were coming around. Could the effects be that quick? I'm not sure but I'm hopeful they're coming around.

 

[HeyPK]

If it doesn't turn out to be calcium deficiency, the next likely suspect is iron deficiency.

 

[Wö£fëñxXx1]

Come on people, all the guessing that goes on is getting stupid.

Where do you suppose all these "so called" deficiency's come from??

To much light!
Do the math.

:biggrin:

 

[pbohart]

what is your WPG? My A. Senegalensis is suffering the same fate under 3.5WPG.

 

[defdac]

Too fast growth rates. It seems to be quite easy to drive for example A. reineckii and L. glandulosa too fast with high CO2, light and non-limiting high nutrient levels.

I was thinking this might have something to do with different kind of light modifies Ca2+ flux across the membranes. For example a high ratio of blue light seems to be necessary to trigger this behaviour (or some kind of weirdness with the red to far-red ratio). Shaded plants never shows this behaviour and they modtly get far-red light, but they also have much lower growth rates.

It also seems this is a low KH problem in combination with high nitrates and/or phosphates and high light. My father has very low KH and he have overdosed KNO3 quite some time but never doses KH2PO4. His A. reineckii grows very slow due to phosphate limiting but it grows nice without curly symptoms.

I tried to limit phosphates too and managed to get nice new growth. I also tried limit nitrates and that worked too, as did limiting light/shading light.

I think Jeff Ludwig have mention too high CO2-levels regarding the L. glandulosa...

 

[LindaC]

Sorry it's taken me so long to answer some of these questions. I don't think that my plant leaves stunting and leaves curling is due to too much light as I am only running 65 watts over my 29 gallon. I do have a Current dual satelitte with 2 x 65 watts, however, I'm not running both lights, in fact the second light is 50/50 with a sunpag daylight 10,000k and an atinic bulb, but I haven't been using the second bulb.

My water is soft, KH is at 80 because I buffer my water with baking soda and my GH is 40. The amount of CO2 I am getting if hard for my to decipher. Tests tell me that my PH is around 6.4 so that would give me about 54 ppms of CO2 and yet my fish aren't even close to gasping at the top. I'm thinking of investing in a drop checkers in order to get a more accurate measurement of CO2 in my tank.

I do not buffer the water in my 10 gallon tank and my ph and kh are very low in that tank due to the ADA Aquasoil. I dose nutrients EI in both tanks doing a 50% water change once a week.

My plant leaves aren't curling any longer but I'm still getting stunted growth on my Rotala pink. The new growth seems to keep growing out smaller and smaller and I'd love to know why.

 

[Wö£fëñxXx1]

Linda,

How long is your photoperiod?
Does the 65w light sit directly on the tank?
How are you diffusing the C02?

65w on a 29g tank is in fact a lot of light, the wpg rule does not work on the 29g, I have had one for almost 5 years now, and it has been trixy at times to figure out.
I burn a single 65w fixture with a good reflector over a 29, but I have it hanging so I can adjust the hight of it, plants grow best with it 4" to 6" above the tank for 2/3 of the photoperiod.

Most folks are in fact burning to much light over their tank, which can be okay if all you have is a bunch of fast growing stem plants, but when you add slow/er growing plants like Ammania sp., L. Glandulosa, Tonina's, Eriocaulon etc then you enter into a different relm, light needs to be a little more "regulated" or I like to call it "light management".

Growing some of the slower growing plants takes a little more awareness of the plants ability and limits.

I have found that these plants stunt when we try to "make" them grow faster than they want to. I have a few different scenario's I use for growing these type plants, and all of them evolve around light management.

A "drop checker" is just another gimmick to detract one's attention from the real issue, the plants needs, they (the plants) will tell you everything you need to know, if one simply learns to read them, focus on growing healthy plants, which does not take more gadgets in the tank or massive amounts of electric sunshine, reduce intensity for slower-healthier growth. NPK TE Carbon.

Couple of things off top of my head to help you trouble shoot this:

Dose:
20~40gal
50%H20 change-weekly
+/-1/4Tsp-KN03 3x a week
+/-1/16+Tsp-KH2P04 3x aweek
+/-1/16+Tsp K2S04 3x a week
+/-5ml Trace 3x a week
+/-1-2ml Fe/Iron 3x a week

I dose my 29g just like this except I add 10ml Trace.

1. If you have a single strip light that came with the tank like a 30w tube, burn it for the first and last 2 hours for a week or so, that will cut out 4 hours of intensity which is very much okay to do, while continuing to give the plants plenty of C02 and ferts during full photoperiod of 8hrs, no more than 10hrs. Unless you are around 1wpg.

2. Burn the 65w for 8 hrs and add Flouish Excel to your dosing regime for a week at recommended doses, if plants show good signs of "vigor" which you should see in a matter of a couple days, then that will in fact tell you that your C02 is not as good as you think it may be for the amount of light being burned. Which I have found to be very true.

Glass diffusers will give much better results especially at higher light levels than a reactor any day, any PVC reactor is, well simply put, just so DIY. Lots of folks start out with DIY gas, then upgrade the light, then upgrade to pressurized, but they don't upgrade their method of diffusion, which is another mistake.

2~2.5 wpg is "highlight". 3+wpg is to much light for most folks, they may get away with it for a while, but if the understanding is not there, then it will catch up to them, I have noticed that a lot of folks are more concerned about their new massive light fixture than actually growing nice plants. haha

Buffering the water is another thing I find very unnecessary, soft water is king for growing plants. I did a test and challenge any one else to do the same that can and are willing.

So I did a test with 3 tanks using only the necessities, KN03, KH2P04, K2S04, TE, C02, one tank w/ RO/DI water only, another w/50/50 tap-RO/DI, and lastly, straight tap 3 different tanks, I am still running them that way. I live with these three tanks. I have 7 in total, all planted.
I have yet to see a need for any Sodium Bicarb, Ca, Mg, GH Booster or Seachem EQ...
The results were the same in all cases, dosing the Sticky/ EI levels to a Tee, with good C02, it is light management and Carbon

Then use a little Excel when you think you are "getting a deficientcy" and you will see it is light/carbon, then adjust light, carbon or both.

Each tank has peat in the substrate, Eheim filters from bottom up, noodles, course pad, efi sub, and fine pad or floss, with good flow and proper surface agitation.

Something else I need to toss out there:
When dosing the sticky/EI levels for highlight one should add K+ to there dosing.
_Dosing Regime's_ - The Planted Tank Forum
The sticky on this forum (APC) excludes added K+ which is fine for a tank with around 2wpg, when you get above that the minutus amount dosed from K/N03 and K/H2P04 is not enough for a highlight tank.

It also does not take 8 years of college to know how to grow some nice plants.
I could keep going, but I am late for work now, the advantages of being self employed

 

[kekon]

There is another micronutrient which proved to have beneficial effects on plants - titanium. It'll be probably added to micronutrients list soon. Some fertilizers contain titanium. Titanium is used for growing vegetables and fruits when they are fertilized; it speeds 2x plants growth and greatly increases micro and macro uptake. In the past i was using such a fertilizer with titanium and plants grew like crazy despite low NO3, PO4 and CO2 (however, K and other micros were at high levels - a few times more that it accumulates using 100% TMG doses). I've just ordered some TiCl3 (titanium chloride) to examine what effect it will have on my plants

 

[Laith]

...

So I did a test with 3 tanks using only the necessities, KN03, KH2P04, K2S04, TE, C02, one tank w/ RO/DI water only, another w/50/50 tap-RO/DI, and lastly, straight tap 3 different tanks, I am still running them that way. I live with these three tanks. I have 7 in total, all planted.
I have yet to see a need for any Sodium Bicarb, Ca, Mg, GH Booster or Seachem EQ...

...

Not to go off topic... (well, yes, a bit off topic )

Are you saying that plants don't need any Ca and/or Mg to grow well? (I'm referring to the tank with 100% RO/DI water...).

I'd like to hear more about this as I'd always thought that Ca and Mg were part of the "necessities" that plants require. There has been much debate on the amounts of Ca and Mg required and ratios but this is the first I've heard that neither is necessary at all.

 

[Laith]

A sudden, thundering silence...

 

[LindaC]

Craig, thank you so much for all the great information, I truly appreciate it. I do have a couple of questions regarding the buffering of my water by adding baking soda. When I first went over to pressurized CO2, a lot of people on another board, told me that I needed to add the baking soda because my KH was too low, it's been a while but if I remember correctly, it was the same as my GH, 40 ppms or maybe a little lower. Seeing that I've been buffering the water for almost a year now, would it be okay for the fish if I just stop adding the baking soda? I just want to be sure that my PH doesn't crash and my fish don't get totally stressed out if I stop buffering.

My photo period is 10 hours, my lights are on a timer, along with my CO2. My lights sit directly over my tank and are about 2 - 3 inhces away from the water. I have a dual 2x65 watt satelitte but as I stated earlier, I only use one of the bulbs, the one that is 6700k/10,000k. The other bulb is a 50/50, have 10,000k daylight and the other half is actinic. Would it be a good idea to run the the 50/50 bulb for 2 hours at the beginning and then 2 hours at the end? I tried running both bulbs for a short period of time but my plants didn't appear to be very happy until I stopped running the 2nd bulb, that could have been due to my not dosing more ferts.


One more question on the fert regimine you stated above. I dose Fleet for my phosphates, can you give me a ratio of just how much would equal to 1/16 of a tsp of KH2P04?

Thanks again!

 

[Wö£fëñxXx1]

A sudden, thundering silence...

Are you saying that plants don't need any Ca and/or Mg to grow well? (I'm referring to the tank with 100% RO/DI water...).

Hi Laith, sorry been busy

That is exactly what I am saying, plants grow very nice in acidic water.
In the three tanks I test, the RO tank grows most plants better, for instance Downoi, grows fat, stays compact and looks 10x healthier than it does in the 50/50 or straight tap tank, in those it wants to grow to tall to fast, gets leggy/er looking.
The 50/50 & tap tank both have aqua soil w/PS

The parameters of the RO tank,
Tahitan moon sand mixed with ground peat, dusted with iron chelate and K+ then capped with 3.5" Red Sea Flora Base...

Last time I test KH 0~2 ph 6, as low the kit would go. I've not touched a test kit in about a year.

I use RO/DI water on this tank with an occasional shot of tap.
Dosed to the sticky for a 20/40g, 65w pc 8 hours with good C02. Aeration with pipe throughout the night.

I keep Cardinals and Cherrie shrimp in this tank with no problem at all. never a glitch.

In the 50/50 RO/Tap tank, I just started using pure RO also, and plants look even better than they did.

As long as I have been into aquatic's, all my life, then seriously for the last 5yr. I have "never" yet to see a need to add anything to the water that was not necessary for the plant's. KN03, KH2P04, K2S04, TE, Fe, C02.

Never a need for Sadium bicarb (Baking Soda) Ca, Mg, GH Booster or Seachem EQ, never in any tank.

Dosing to the sticky, thats easy, knowing how to use C02 and light can be a little tricky, and using the spray bar or lily pipe to aerate the water in offpeek hours, which is very important in any tank, the reasons are twofold:

1.Aeration of the water is an advantage to plants and fish.
2. Clean surface.
You can even aerate during photoperiod, periodically if you choose.

Most folks are burning to much light for to long which in turn makes the plants grow fast or to fast, severly increasing the need for nutrient's creating a very large margin for error. dosing the sticky levels is for 2 to 3/ishwpg, burning 3 plus wpg all day everyday is overkill. wanna burn more light? reduce the photoperiod length.

Folks are over complicating it! NPK TE C02 Light. and then knowing what to do with just that :biggrin:

I burn 8 to 9 hours on all of my tanks with about 2 to 2.5wpg for 2/3 of the photoperiod and then 3+wpg for the other 1/3, some days a little less some/more. I do know how to grow plants, that is my main focus, I can see them and how they respond to change and what they like and dislike... That is the ultimate test kit.

Adding ingredients for KH/GH does not helped a thing in my experience.

All my tank's purrr, no algae issues at all, I keep my filtration in top condition and tanks clean.

So if I can grow plants very well without ever having to add those using RO/DI, does that mean that the plant's need it?

Thanks
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Craig, thank you so much for all the great information, I truly appreciate it. I do have a couple of questions regarding the buffering of my water by adding baking soda. When I first went over to pressurized CO2, a lot of people on another board, told me that I needed to add the baking soda because my KH was too low, it's been a while but if I remember correctly, it was the same as my GH, 40 ppms or maybe a little lower. Seeing that I've been buffering the water for almost a year now, would it be okay for the fish if I just stop adding the baking soda? I just want to be sure that my PH doesn't crash and my fish don't get totally stressed out if I stop buffering.

Your welcome,
If you ever want bad advice, just got to the forums, you can find it..lol
Yes stop adding that mess, the fish will be fine, aeration of the water is much more important than adding baking soda anyday of the week.
ph crash would be turning the water to battery acid, we can't do that with C02, that is a myth, just like buffering the water is myth. Think aeration instead of sodium bicarb.

My photo period is 10 hours, my lights are on a timer, along with my CO2. My lights sit directly over my tank and are about 2 - 3 inhces away from the water. I have a dual 2x65 watt satelitte but as I stated earlier, I only use one of the bulbs, the one that is 6700k/10,000k. The other bulb is a 50/50, have 10,000k daylight and the other half is actinic. Would it be a good idea to run the the 50/50 bulb for 2 hours at the beginning and then 2 hours at the end? I tried running both bulbs for a short period of time but my plants didn't appear to be very happy until I stopped running the 2nd bulb, that could have been due to my not dosing more ferts.

Dose the sticky levels, don't be affraid of it burn the 65w for 8 hours, you can add the other 50/50 bulb (not the best bulb for growing plants) for two or three hours midway or close to the end of photoperiod, if plant response is good, then good, if not, add Excel to your regime for a week, if that helps them, then that tells you C02 is not as good as you think. Need better diffusion not better desolution of the gas.

One more question on the fert regimine you stated above. I dose Fleet for my phosphates, can you give me a ratio of just how much would equal to 1/16 of a tsp of KH2P04?

If you are using Fleet enema, change 1/32 teaspoon Phosphate to 1/2 mL Fleet.
So 1ml 3x weekly, if you are dosing more than that, its fine. I would add a little more than 1ml anyway.

 

[LindaC]

Good, I am dosing 1 ml of Fleet every other day, or 3 times a week and before dosing the sticky you posted, I was adding 3/8ths tsp of KNO3, 1/16th of K2SO4, 5 ml of Seachem Flourish and 1ml of Seachem iron. and with this regimine and 10 hours under 65watts with CO2 being diffused via Rhinox 2000, I was seeing stunting on my Rotala pink.

I have turned my CO2 up a little more and also turned my spraybar (FilstarXP2) so the hole faces a little more toward the top. Will this help with the airation? I would like to look into purchasing a Lily Pipe or even one of the knock offs, how do they work? Would it have to be hooked up to a power head?

Once again, thanks for the advice and answers to my questions.

Linda

 

[Edward]

I have to agree with Craig. Most plants do grow better in lower to no KH and there is no pH crash. Using baking soda is unnecessary and makes situation worse. I've posted about it some time ago. Dissolved CO2 can lower pH as low as 5.65 which is preferred by most fish and plants. CO2 forms a very mild acid Carbonic acid H2CO3. Coke and Pepsi have a pH ~ 2.4, Cheers.

Another issue is aeration. There is tons of gasses dissolved in the water column. If we don't lower the saturation there won't be free space for more CO2 and O2. Large underwater power head can free the extra gasses and an air stone add O2.

For Ca and Mg we can use Hi quality RO and Ca dissolving substrate or inert substrate with a dose of Discus Mix post #3. Another option is to use High-Flow RO that removes around 70% of minerals. The remaining 30% is the perfect water with small amounts of needed Ca.

Edward