I think one good thing with this method is the information on Ca and mg. I've got the test kits coming in a couple of weeks, so I'm not sure its my problem, but at least the information has given me another place to look for answers to my leaf curling/stunting problem.
PPS TECHNICAL - Discussion Thread
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Greg's curly leaf issue............San Jose water is hard, both KH and GH, it' varies also depending on location.
Some plants will respond differently to KH, which plants are being addressed?
Since I've grown most of the plant species to high level. If someone can grow it, find out what they did and repeat it and see if it works. Generally it does.
Greg, see Dave Gomberg's tank for a classic no water change CO2 tank long before this ever occured in the recent postings. The folks in sfbaaps tried this a long time ago as did I later.
I can assure you, he does not test
The water is very soft.
But if you want to test things, crank up the light, which you do have a lot of on that tank.
Then uptake rates become higher and limitations occur quickly.
It is possible that some plants simply need more time to translocate the nutrients to the growth sites.
The new growth simply has not had time to produce the Ca/Mg uptake channels so the plant must translocate them from older, more developed areas.
Some plants might have issues there.
But I doubt it........
Tell me which plants you are dealing with.
Regards,
Tom Barr
Some plants will respond differently to KH, which plants are being addressed?
Since I've grown most of the plant species to high level. If someone can grow it, find out what they did and repeat it and see if it works. Generally it does.
Greg, see Dave Gomberg's tank for a classic no water change CO2 tank long before this ever occured in the recent postings. The folks in sfbaaps tried this a long time ago as did I later.
I can assure you, he does not test
The water is very soft.
But if you want to test things, crank up the light, which you do have a lot of on that tank.
Then uptake rates become higher and limitations occur quickly.
It is possible that some plants simply need more time to translocate the nutrients to the growth sites.
The new growth simply has not had time to produce the Ca/Mg uptake channels so the plant must translocate them from older, more developed areas.
Some plants might have issues there.
But I doubt it........
Tell me which plants you are dealing with.
Regards,
Tom Barr
I haven't been paying a lot of attention to the tank recently. The intensity of the PC bulbs have gone down a lot, and a lot of the plants are getting ugly. I got the test kits this week, and plan to keep track of things next week. The problem I was having was with the Rotala "green", MM, and Ludwiga acruata. Its just weird, growth will be great and then stunt mid week.
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You told me this when I asked about this over at APD:plantbrain said:
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200412/msg00004.html
"The above references are for terrestrial plants, which have no ionic Ca++ floating around their leaves(from water+ CaCl2 which disassociates into their ions Ca++ and Cl-)"
With very low circulation that would be a problem I guess?
Traces I have enough of. The substrate is another matter. Perhaps I should try shoving down some CaCl2 by the roots and see if things get better - but if the plant have to transport things from the roots/older parts I guess it would still get curly leaves?
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Bill,
If you are looking for the 0.75 : 0.25 : 1.0 of the SS then I believe the Math is as follows. If you are looking for one of the other formulations then just subtitute in the equations:
KNO3: 20.38g used, 101.11g/mol 20.38/101.11 = 0.20156 (our multipier for KNO3)
Breakdown:
K: 39.10g/mol * 0.20156 = 7.88g of K used
NO3: 62.01g/mol * 0.20156 = 12.50g of NO3 used
KH2PO4: 5.97g used, 136.07g/mol 5.97/136.07 = 0.04387 (our multiplier for KH2PO4)
Breakdown:
K: 39.10g/mol * 0.04387 = 1.715g of K used
H2: 1.0g/mol * 0.04387 = 0.088g of H2 used
PO4 94.97g/mol * 0.04387 = 4.166g of PO4 used
K2SO4: 15.74g used 174.27g/mol 15.74/174.27 = 0.09032 (our multiplier for K2SO4)
Breakdown:
K2: 78.2g/mol * 0.09032 = 7.06g of K2 used
SO4: 96.07g/mol * 0.09032 = 8.68g of SO4 used
So here is How it adds up
NO3: 12.50g
PO4: 4.166g
K: 7.88g + 1.715g + 7.06g = 16.655g
If you substitute in KCL it has a lower Formula weight but it also has less K per molecule. You need to substitute KSO4's 7.06g of K for KCL's 7.06g of K:
KCl: Xg used 74.55g/mol X/74.55 = Y (Y is our multiplier for KCL)
Breakdown:
K: 39.10g/mol * Y = 7.06g of K used
Cl: 35.45g/mol * Y = Z
Solve for XY and Z
39.10 * Y = 7.06 Y= 0.18056
X/74.55 = Y (Y = 0.18056) so X = 13.46g of KCL
For fun solve for Z:
35.45 * Y = Z substitute in Y and Z = 6.40
there will be essentially 6.4g of Cl- floating around your tank (by the time you finish your fertilizing) so I don't know if this is a good idea
Dose the fertilizer exactly like Edward says: 1ml/10gal
P.S. if anybody finds a flaw with my math (such as Edward) please let me know
Ken T.
If you are looking for the 0.75 : 0.25 : 1.0 of the SS then I believe the Math is as follows. If you are looking for one of the other formulations then just subtitute in the equations:
KNO3: 20.38g used, 101.11g/mol 20.38/101.11 = 0.20156 (our multipier for KNO3)
Breakdown:
K: 39.10g/mol * 0.20156 = 7.88g of K used
NO3: 62.01g/mol * 0.20156 = 12.50g of NO3 used
KH2PO4: 5.97g used, 136.07g/mol 5.97/136.07 = 0.04387 (our multiplier for KH2PO4)
Breakdown:
K: 39.10g/mol * 0.04387 = 1.715g of K used
H2: 1.0g/mol * 0.04387 = 0.088g of H2 used
PO4 94.97g/mol * 0.04387 = 4.166g of PO4 used
K2SO4: 15.74g used 174.27g/mol 15.74/174.27 = 0.09032 (our multiplier for K2SO4)
Breakdown:
K2: 78.2g/mol * 0.09032 = 7.06g of K2 used
SO4: 96.07g/mol * 0.09032 = 8.68g of SO4 used
So here is How it adds up
NO3: 12.50g
PO4: 4.166g
K: 7.88g + 1.715g + 7.06g = 16.655g
If you substitute in KCL it has a lower Formula weight but it also has less K per molecule. You need to substitute KSO4's 7.06g of K for KCL's 7.06g of K:
KCl: Xg used 74.55g/mol X/74.55 = Y (Y is our multiplier for KCL)
Breakdown:
K: 39.10g/mol * Y = 7.06g of K used
Cl: 35.45g/mol * Y = Z
Solve for XY and Z
39.10 * Y = 7.06 Y= 0.18056
X/74.55 = Y (Y = 0.18056) so X = 13.46g of KCL
For fun solve for Z:
35.45 * Y = Z substitute in Y and Z = 6.40
there will be essentially 6.4g of Cl- floating around your tank (by the time you finish your fertilizing) so I don't know if this is a good idea
Dose the fertilizer exactly like Edward says: 1ml/10gal
P.S. if anybody finds a flaw with my math (such as Edward) please let me know
Ken T.
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Thanks Ken...that's way too much math and chemistry for me.
With regards to the other solutions, can you just apply the same percentage of KCL:K2SO4 to determine the proper amount? E.g., in the SS, KCl mass is 86% of what would be added using K2SO4. So can you take 86% of the K2SO4 mass in the other solutions as the amount of KCl to add?
With regards to the other solutions, can you just apply the same percentage of KCL:K2SO4 to determine the proper amount? E.g., in the SS, KCl mass is 86% of what would be added using K2SO4. So can you take 86% of the K2SO4 mass in the other solutions as the amount of KCl to add?
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Yes that should work.
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Bill,
Remember:
Remember:
cousinkenni said:
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Okay, in a moment of clarity I decided to plug in the SS component amount into the Fertilator with an arbitrarily set tank volume. In order to get the potassium ppm value to be equal using KCl it actually comes out to 14.2g rather than the 13.46g that Ken calculated using molar mass.
It would seem to me that these two amounts should be the same, so why aren't they?
It would seem to me that these two amounts should be the same, so why aren't they?
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Hi
I have not tried KCl before, not sure how is it going to work. You can try and tell us you experience.
Standard Solution SS
0.75:0.25:1.00 (NO3O4:K)
KNO3 20.38 g
KH2PO4 5.97 g
KCl 13.48 g
PO4-Free Solution PF
0.75:0.00:1.00 (NO3O4:K)
KNO3 20.38 g
KH2PO4 0.00 g
KCl 16.75 g
NO3-Free Solution NF
0.00:0.25:1.00 (NO3O4:K)
KNO3 0.00 g
KH2PO4 5.97 g
KCl 28.51 g
Thank you
Edward
I have not tried KCl before, not sure how is it going to work. You can try and tell us you experience.
Standard Solution SS
0.75:0.25:1.00 (NO3
O4:K)KNO3 20.38 g
KH2PO4 5.97 g
KCl 13.48 g
PO4-Free Solution PF
0.75:0.00:1.00 (NO3
O4:K)KNO3 20.38 g
KH2PO4 0.00 g
KCl 16.75 g
NO3-Free Solution NF
0.00:0.25:1.00 (NO3
O4:K)KNO3 0.00 g
KH2PO4 5.97 g
KCl 28.51 g
Thank you
Edward
I read through and understood the 6 articles ok, but seem to be missing the big picture. What would a typical daily dose be for say a 30 or 10g tank? What would it look like over a week? Ok, maybe you are proposing there is no typical tank. What is the dose schedule for one of your tanks?
I'm not planning on trying this since I'm barely taking care of my tanks as it is and while I have all the test kits needed except Ca, I find that I get real motivated at first but then slack too much to tune this to your suggested targets. I Drop 1/4 tsp of powdered KNO3, K2SO4, a few drops of Fleet and 8ml of TMG into my 75 long every other day. At this point I don't even dissolve it. I just dump near the filter outlet, while feeding fish at other end. I do 50% water changes on most but not all weekends. My tank isn't going to to win an AGA place, so I'm not advising anyone to follow my slacker lead. The fish have grown a lot.
I did enjoy reading through the chem since I have a biochem background.
I liked the excel spreadsheet too. Thinking of putting in a charting macro for us? I noticed aquabotanic's newsletter had a nice graph to show of an article based on the PPS.
I get the feeling that I am missing an overall intro article or maybe it is still in draft form?
I'm not planning on trying this since I'm barely taking care of my tanks as it is and while I have all the test kits needed except Ca, I find that I get real motivated at first but then slack too much to tune this to your suggested targets. I Drop 1/4 tsp of powdered KNO3, K2SO4, a few drops of Fleet and 8ml of TMG into my 75 long every other day. At this point I don't even dissolve it. I just dump near the filter outlet, while feeding fish at other end. I do 50% water changes on most but not all weekends. My tank isn't going to to win an AGA place, so I'm not advising anyone to follow my slacker lead. The fish have grown a lot.
I did enjoy reading through the chem since I have a biochem background.
I liked the excel spreadsheet too. Thinking of putting in a charting macro for us? I noticed aquabotanic's newsletter had a nice graph to show of an article based on the PPS.
I get the feeling that I am missing an overall intro article or maybe it is still in draft form?
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I think Edward is just now finding the words to describe the 'big picture'. Thats why you and others are having difficulties deciphering PPS. In the early days of PPS Edward did provide a fictional sample data set that illustrated its application. Look here: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=2303&page=2&pp=10skids said:
His understanding has changed some since then and I think is due for a published update. Now that the PPS system has been around 4 months I would like to see some reportage and possibly examine .xls spreadsheets of people working with PPS. I know that Edward asks to see PPS users .xls data files when consulting in the APC chat room. It would be nice to hear a progress report.
Hi Skids
Just want to add, that the idea is to begin dosing a small quantity say 3ml per day for about a week. Once the week is over you perform your tests and see whether the values you desire have been achieved. If they have you continue as is, if you desire higher you increase your dosage to lets say 5ml per day for one week and test again until the desired levels are reached, adjusting your drops on a weekly basis until you get to where you want to be. From that point on it will be fairly consistent until you make significant adjustments to your tank as in many more plants or fish or what have you, as this would affect your parameters so you would have to readjust your dosing accordingly.
In addition Edward has provided phosphate free or nitrate free amongst others solutions for tanks that are abundant in these so that you are not forced to only dose SS (Standard Solution) but can dose a nitrate free or a phosphate free solution depending on your tank.
Hope this adds a little bit of clarity to your question.
You should see the link Jeff Kropp provided as it is a great starting point.skids said:
Just want to add, that the idea is to begin dosing a small quantity say 3ml per day for about a week. Once the week is over you perform your tests and see whether the values you desire have been achieved. If they have you continue as is, if you desire higher you increase your dosage to lets say 5ml per day for one week and test again until the desired levels are reached, adjusting your drops on a weekly basis until you get to where you want to be. From that point on it will be fairly consistent until you make significant adjustments to your tank as in many more plants or fish or what have you, as this would affect your parameters so you would have to readjust your dosing accordingly.
In addition Edward has provided phosphate free or nitrate free amongst others solutions for tanks that are abundant in these so that you are not forced to only dose SS (Standard Solution) but can dose a nitrate free or a phosphate free solution depending on your tank.
Hope this adds a little bit of clarity to your question.
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