Soil question for the Walstad tank

7200 Views 135 Replies 9 Participants Last post by Oslo, 6 d ago

Oslo

Discussion Starter · 7 mo ago

Soil consisting of 60% peat moss, 40% composed bark fines and iron sulfate (50g/m3) additive, would it be ok for a Walstad tank even if it has a pH of 4? Or would it be beneficial to have a soil exclusively consisting of either peat moss or compressed bark fines?

Cheers,

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mistergreen

· #81 · 6 mo ago

Hydrogen sulfide smell indicates anaerobic conditions in the soil. Poking introduces oxygen into the area which helps. Plants have a difficult time growing in anaerobic soil and hydrogen sulfide is toxic to fish in large enough quantify.
It sounds like you’re good.

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Oslo

Discussion Starter · #82 · 6 mo ago (Edited)

johnwesley0 said:
First of all, it is difficult to imagine a higher critical mass of ammonia/ammonium/nitrite than you've already experienced from dumping a bag full of terrestrial soil into your tank and exposing it to water. The fact that all your parameters are headed in the right direction is a huge testament to your healthy plant growth. If you're really worried about bio-load, the solution is to continue what you've been doing which is adding more plants. Hoping that you have enough beneficial bacteria to absorb fish poop is like hoping you have enough ants at a picnic. Just eat the food.

Second of all, as @dwalstad has posted several times, your unusually high nitrite levels were likely not the result of nitrification (beneficial bacteria) but were probably the result of nitrate respiration, a process that was set in motion while the soil was exposed to air.

Third and lastly, be careful what you wish for. The less able your plants are to compete with the beneficial bacteria already in your tank for food, the more you will periodically have to change the water as nitrification levels rise. Plant uptake of ammonia/ammonium results in plant protein. Bacteria just produce a different form of nitrogen.

It's probably too early to expect toxic gases to form in your soil. I would consider poking around now rather than later as a preventative measure.

Ok, I will just stay calm then, do some poking now and then and let mother nature take over for some weeks before I add any livestock. I will naturally do some water tests to follow the situation, remove dead plant material, and maybe add some more plants.

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Oslo

Discussion Starter · #83 · 6 mo ago

5

After being calm all weekend I would like to play with tank 3.....

So, what to do with the third tank?
I believe my H.polysperma and its friends are not great fans of the environment in tank 3 (see pictures). Their leafs are becoming very pale compared to their cousins in tank 1 and 2. Light exposure may be too strong or do they lack some vital nutrition, any comments on that? The bottom layer in the third tank consist of gravel and a thin layer of Aquatic Nature Fertiplant ABF at the bottom. ANF contains Laterit, Lignite, Baraclay and trace elements (no nitrates or phosphates), which should be released slowly according to the manufacturer ( Aquatic Nature Fertiplant ABF | Seaflower ).

Plant Petal Terrestrial plant Grass Groundcover

Plant Flower Terrestrial plant Groundcover Petal

Plant Terrestrial plant Flowering plant Grass Flower

I am now thinking of re-building tank 3 and add some real forest soil, too see how that soil compares to the two commercial soils (tiger and sowing soil) in tank 1 and 2. Will I get the same peak in nitrite/nitrate with this type of soil? If so, we can for sure blame it on the bone meal that I will put into the forest mix. If not, we may blame it on the manure fraction in the two commercial soils, which seem to result in a transient peak in nitrite/nitrate as detected.

Water Wood Trunk Grass Soil

Food Ingredient Recipe Cuisine Dish

A final question, have your tank ever smelled a faint of manure? Will this smell go away after some time or will it only become stronger.......?

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johnwesley0

· #84 · 6 mo ago

Oslo said:
A final question, have your tank ever smelled a faint of manure? Will this smell go away after some time or will it only become stronger.......?

Does this involve an actual tank that you have or are you just bumping your thread?

Oslo

Discussion Starter · #85 · 6 mo ago

johnwesley0 said:
Does this involve an actual tank that you have or are you just bumping your thread?

I have three tanks, one with just gravel and some commercial fertilizer in the bottom layer (ANF ABF, see link above, tank 3) and two with dirt soil and gravel (walstad type of bottom layer). So, two cubic tanks (31L, 30x30x35), and one rectangular type of tank (37,5L) with measurements 25x50x30cm (WxLxH). The 37,5L tank (tank 3) show signs of poor plant growth in the form of pale leaf color on the plants (see pictures above). So, I thought maybe I should do a make over and make a dirt tank of that one too. The two cubic tanks were installed for about three weeks ago, while tank 3 is one week older.

johnwesley0

· #86 · 6 mo ago

Oslo said:
I have three tanks, one with just gravel and some commercial fertilizer in the bottom layer (ANF ABF, see link above, tank 3) and two with dirt soil and gravel (walstad type of bottom layer). So, two cubic tanks (31L, 30x30x35), and one rectangular type of tank (37,5L) with measurements 25x50x30cm (WxLxH). The 37,5L tank (tank 3) show signs of poor plant growth in the form of pale leaf color on the plants (see pictures above). So, I thought maybe I should do a make over and make a dirt tank of that one too. The two cubic tanks were installed for about three weeks ago, while tank 3 is one week older.

Well, in answer to your question, No. I would not use pure animal manure as a substrate.

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Oslo

Discussion Starter · #87 · 6 mo ago

johnwesley0 said:
Well, in answer to your question, No. I would not use pure animal manure as a substrate.

I do not have any pure manure tanks at the moment

. However, some manure is usually often added to commercial garden soil if you read the label at the back

. Since it smells of manure in tank 2, I was wondering if that smell usually gets stronger or weaker with time....but I guess no one have had that experience here. If it gets stronger I will tear down tank 2 also. So, what do you think of using pure soil from the forest then? I need to rinse it a bit first to sort out all the floating parts before I use it.

johnwesley0

· #88 · 6 mo ago

Oslo said:
A final question, have your tank ever smelled a faint of manure? Will this smell go away after some time or will it only become stronger.......?

johnwesley0 said:
Does this involve an actual tank that you have or are you just bumping your thread?

Oslo said:
Since it smells of manure in tank 2, I was wondering if that smell usually gets stronger or weaker with time.

That is what I was asking. I'm surprised that a very small amount of chicken manure would still smell after all the water changes you've performed. I have not had that problem with the houseplant mixes I've used.

dwalstad

· #89 · 6 mo ago (Edited)

Oslo said:
I do not have any pure manure tanks at the moment . However, some manure is usually often added to commercial garden soil if you read the label at the back . Since it smells of manure in tank 2, I was wondering if that smell usually gets stronger or weaker with time....but I guess no one have had that experience here. If it gets stronger I will tear down tank 2 also.

Manure should be well-composted before it is sold to people as an ingredient in potting soil. Doesn't matter whether the manure is originally from chickens, cows, or what-not.
If the soil is growing plants, I wouldn't worry about the smell. Maybe it is a stray worm that's decomposing at the bottom? And whatever it is, the smell probably will decrease as it eventually decomposes. I certainly wouldn't tear down a tank because of it. Just increase aeration and do a water change.
If it truly is manure, you should be able to confirm its presence by measuring ammonia.

You do know that nitrogen is a major plant nutrient? Your plants in Tank #3 may be nitrogen deficient, since the substrate has none and you haven't added fish/fishfood. Same goes for phosphate.

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Oslo

Discussion Starter · #90 · 6 mo ago (Edited)

7

dwalstad said:
Manure should be well-composted before it is sold to people as an ingredient in potting soil. Doesn't matter whether the manure is originally from chickens, cows, or what-not.
If the soil is growing plants, I wouldn't worry about the smell. Maybe it is a stray worm that's decomposing at the bottom? And whatever it is, the smell probably will decrease as it eventually decomposes. I certainly wouldn't tear down a tank because of it. Just increase aeration and do a water change.
If it truly is manure, you should be able to confirm its presence by measuring ammonia.

You do know that nitrogen is a major plant nutrient? Your plants in Tank #3 may be nitrogen deficient, since the substrate has none and you haven't added fish/fishfood. Same goes for phosphate.

Thank you for constructive feedback. I have added both NH3 and KH2PO4 to the tank regularly in the water layer, but I think I will tear it down and make a dirt tank of it. Here is tank 3:

Water Fluid Pet supply Gas Wood

And here are some close ups:

Plant Plant community Leaf Terrestrial plant Vegetation

Plant Terrestrial plant Organism Grass Groundcover

Water Botany Terrestrial plant Organism Aquatic plant

So, I started to "wash" the forest soil yesterday that I collected this weekend.

Food Ingredient Recipe Cuisine Dish

and after some "wash" ...........

Liquid Fluid Building material Tints and shades Gas

Plant Asphalt Road surface Pattern Soil

It contains a very "reddish" color and it is almost only gravel in different sizes left

. I have probably washed it too much.I do not think this "soil" contains much nutrition, but if I mix it with one of the commercial garden soils I should be fine perhaps?

Another question, while watching my other tanks yesterday evening, I saw release of bubbles from the bottom layer of the tank with tiger soil, without me poking in it. It seems like this tank have started to release bubbles by itself randomly. I did smell and there was no smell at all at the surface of the tank. Can it be the magic CO2 release from the soil, or is that too early and too naive to expect? And when should I expect the plants to start growing like crazy? I am into week 4 now, is there a particular time point when we should expect great plant grown (if the soil is what we hope it should be for a planted tank)? Is it after 4 weeks, after 8 weeks, or longer?

What I am trying to figure out is which soil I am going to put in tank 3. The soil which release a lot of bubbles or the tank with a faint smell of manure and less bubbles. The tiger soil vs the sowing soil. Ideally, I should just wait and see how the plant growth goes in these two tanks.

Sowing soil
Size: 0-15mm
Organic content: >40%
Density: 440 kg/m³
pH-value: pH 5,5 - 6,5
Totalnitrogen (EN 13654-1 1500 mg/l)

Composition: light peat moss (H2-H4), dark peat moss (H6-H8), sand, organic chicken manure, limestone, kalimagnesia.

Aditions pr. m3:
Magnesium and limestone: 5,5 kg
Chicken manure: 2 kg
Kalimagnesia/patenkail (potassium sulfate and magnesium sulfate): 0,3 kg

"Tiger soil"
Composition: Garden compost, Vermicompost, sand, chicken manure
For outdoor use, can contain worms, for plants in pots, to improve current soil, use nitrogen fertilizer after own choice.
Size: 0 - 10 mm
Density: 580 kg/m3
pH 7,6

Nutrition in mg/L
Nitrogen (N) 3000
Natrium (Na) 46
Ammonium (NH4) 0,23
Sulfat (SO4)10
Nitrat (NO3) 13
Bor (B) 1,2
Fosfor (P) 4,2
Kobber (Cu) 1,7
Kalium (K) 1200
Jern (Fe) 87
Kalsium (Ca) 5300
Mangan (Mn) 3,7
Magnesium (Mg) 160
Sink (Zn) 15

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mistergreen

· #91 · 6 mo ago

The Forrest soil looks pretty low on organic content. You wash away the clay content it seems. It looks really natural though.

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Oslo

Discussion Starter · #92 · 6 mo ago

mistergreen said:
The Forrest soil looks pretty low on organic content. You wash away the clay content it seems. It looks really natural though.

Yeah, I am afraid so, it is a very poor type of forest soil where I live, not much soil, mostly gravel and sand after the ice age. The "uncomposed" peat, grass, pines etc. have more or less been washed out. That`s also why I thought it might be a good idea to mix it with some richer garden soil?

Today, I have ordered a new type of soil from the store, called Ø-kompost (ecological composted plant material and nothing else). If I mix this with some fine sand or the forest "soil" that I have collected it might work out? Would also like to add a tiny spoon of bone meal to the mix for some extra N and P.

mistergreen

· #93 · 6 mo ago

Yeah, you can mix in the new compost soil into the forest soil. No need to add anything else. Compost is rich in N & P.

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Oslo

Discussion Starter · #94 · 6 mo ago

3

Soil/plant question: my Ceratopteris thalictroides turns black, or at least the stem turns black (see pic below). Never seen this with plants before. Ceratopteris thalictroides is the only plant I have that turns black. This seem to occur only in the tank with the "tiger soil". Any comment on that? Ceratopteris thalictroides should be a rapid growing plant with low CO2 demands and moderate need for light exposure.

Plant Terrestrial plant Grass Flowering plant Close-up

Plant Terrestrial plant Grass Aquatic plant Flowering plant

Plant Terrestrial plant Water Grass Groundcover

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mistergreen

· #95 · 6 mo ago

Pull out the affected plant to see if the roots are black or melted. It’s a sign of anaerobic soil I mentioned.

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dwalstad

· #96 · 6 mo ago (Edited)

The plant looks good to me. If it is growing well, I would leave it alone. It could be harmless red algae or metal sulfide deposits on the stems. Both dark colored. The Tiger soil could have some excess metal micronutrients that are reacting with stem leachates and precipitating. Only if the roots are black and mushy (decomposing) would I remove this nice plant.

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Oslo

Discussion Starter · #97 · 6 mo ago

Question after 4 weeks with the Walstad tanks:

Both tanks with soil (sowing or tiger) contain air bubbles in the soil. After poking with a thin stick it smells really bad from the tank containing sowing soil. Clearly, anaerobic conditions, smelling hydrogen sulfide. What should I do with this tank? The plants seem to do just fine at the moment, growing. The other tank (tiger soil) contain more air bobbles in the soil, but they do not smell (at the moment). Some plants grow in both tanks, at least plants like: Hygrophila polysperma, Nymphaea zenkeri, Nymphoides hydrophylla and Pistia stratiotes. I will add some photos on Monday when I am back after the weekend.

The water test for both tanks:
NH4 = <0,05
NO2 = 0,05
NO3 = 3 (sowing soil) and 5-15 (15 after poking, 5 before poking, tiger soil)

mistergreen

· #98 · 6 mo ago

The bubbles with no smell is CO2. You want to leave that alone for the plant.
The anaerobic tank, you want to poke everyday to introduce O2 into the soil. Hopefully the condition goes away over time.

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Oslo

Discussion Starter · #99 · 6 mo ago

mistergreen said:
The bubbles with no smell is CO2. You want to leave that alone for the plant.
The anaerobic tank, you want to poke everyday to introduce O2 into the soil. Hopefully the condition goes away over time.

Great! I will poke like a maniac then and hope it will improve over time. Its a bit boring to start all over again if I can avoid it.

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Oslo

Discussion Starter · #100 · 6 mo ago

7

Some pictures of the tanks

"Tiger tank"

Plant Green Leaf Botany Rectangle

Plant Plant community Terrestrial plant Grass Natural landscape

Plant Terrestrial plant Leaf vegetable Grass Groundcover

"Sowing soil"

Plant Terrestrial plant Grass Groundcover Flowering plant

Plant Green Rectangle Terrestrial plant Leaf vegetable

Plant Green Leaf Botany Grass

Plant Houseplant Terrestrial plant Grass Groundcover

Question: should/can I remove the 5W powerhead from the lower water layers or should I let it be?

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