Tank Hex

A couple more things...
*I'm not adding ferts to the tank and don't really see the necessity of them with these plants (I have 2" EcoComplete under 1" of sand for the hairgrass) Will a bit of Flourish or Flourish Excel help at all?

*I have access to a really great phosphate adsorber that might help the water lettuce chew up extra nutrients in the water (Rowa Phos) Should I chuck that in my filter or should I be trying to get the water lettuce whatever other nutrients might be limiting it from doing its job? (I'm a little new to the fertilization thinking because historically, I haven't used them at all)

*There's a pressurized CO2 canister hooked up to my 16" tall 65 gallon (the one that Eheim makes). I could move that to the 50 to kick the Anubias into growing an appreciable amount, but I'm a little leery of pulling it off my 65. Right now, the other tank doesn't look like much because I'm about to move in a month and am going to wait to reaquascape it, but it's got 285 watts of VHO lighting on it and I'm afraid pulling the CO2 would throw stuff out of balance. The tank is doing well at growing out vallisneria and Ammania gracilis (they're making me a load of store credit) so unless it's totally worth it, I'd like to leave the CO2 where it is.

I am not a expert on blue-green algae but I do have some in a tank that had a lot of dissolved organic carbon (DOC) in it from plants rotting. I was also getting an organic scum on the surface. I removed the decay, and vacuum the soil once a week, added a bunch of E. berteroi, and fertilize per Tom Barr.

I see the cleaning you are doing is good, but I wonder about using 4 Watts/gal PC on the tank with slow growng plants. It sounds like you are trying to starve the algae. I have never heard of not fertilizing a high light planted tank without a soil substrate. I would think, as is true for most other algaes, that you will certainly kill all the plants before the algae dies.

I would certainly consider going to 2 W/g by turning off one of the 96W bulbs. Other than fertilizing and adding fast growing plants I'm not sure what would work. I think there are several other threads on blue-green algae that mention blackouts and H2O2, but I think they are for normally fertilized tanks. I assume you've read those threads.

If your PO4 is less than 4 ppm you should use the tap water. You also need a KH of 4, GH of 4 (preferably higher).

Good luck; I am interested how you beat this one, as I could use the info myself.

Steve Pituch

No, I am adding 10 ppm NO3 and 2 ppm PO4 (5:1), twice per week with a 50% weekly water change. That's supposed to increase the cyano problem, but with weekly removal, water changes, lots of plants, and heavy fertilization, its going away along with the brown algae I had with it. I've even tried 4 ppm PO4 with no adverse effects.

I was trying to grow Wild Rice in 1/2 of my 125 gal tank for a biotope experiment, but I was getting a lot of DOC in the water and surface scum. Most of the Rice was not growing well and the decay of some of the rice plants I think was causing it. At one point I had about a 1/8 inch thick carpet of brown (diatom) algae over the whole bottom of the tank.

I got rid of the rice and starting vacuuming the tank once a week. The tank looks great at at this point and 95% of the cyano and diatom algae is gone.

Tom Barr is right. I didn't believe it the first time he told me to try not to limit PO4, but having an excess of P, N, K, or Fe does not hurt the tank. (Having one of them absent is probably a big problem). I just can't afford the good test kits to keep the ratios of these 4 elements constant in the water, and also I don't have the time. I think at this point in time the best in the state of the art for the hobby is T.B.s Estimative Index.

If someone can give us a scientific explanation for the Redfield or buddy ratio, fine, but I don't think I could ever make it work. Having a specific concentration of nutrients in the water has nothing to do with a plants capacity to take those nutrients in (including algae). I've heard of % ratios of these elements in plants and animals but again I don't think it has anything to do with how a plant will suck in those nutrients.

Regards,
Steve Pituch

Walstad uses a soil substrate and fish food for fertilizer. She never uses more than 2W/g, and doesn't inject CO2. The carbon is from the decaying matter in the tank. CO2 must be conserved so she covers her tanks and does not agitate the water. The longer between water changes the better. The biological activities in the tank are going on at a normal rate. It works. You can't grow everything but you can grow quite a lot.

If you add CO2 and ton of light you will need to add more nutrients because the metabolism of the plants is greater. The aquascaper generally wants to grow the plants as quickly as possible so they are adjusting all the inputs: CO2, light, nutrients for maximum growth (maximum potential growth for algae too).

I am more of a biotoper than an aquascaper. I like to play with growing different plants, and am not concerned as much with aquascaping. So I have used both methods. You should always have at least one Walstad type of tank. It is a more natural way of keeping plants. I won 1st place in the biotope category in the AGA contest a few years ago with a Walstad tank, so anything is possible. Just remember to enjoy the hobby.

Steve Pituch

Wow... yeah, this is what I wanted. A really great exchange about fertilizing tanks. Thanks guys!

Here are answers to your questions:
*My tank parameters are KH 4, GH 6, no NH4 NO2 NO3 (according to Tetra and Aquarium Pharmaceuticals for each parameter)
*I was starting to think that the 4 wpg might be too much, but I popped the light on there at first because I was worried about the hairgrass not getting enough with just the single bulb. It's on a timer and I suppose I could just turn on the second one for a few hours every day or leave it completely off.
*With the Anubias being so slow, I didn't think it'd be a huge issue if I didn't fertilize the tank. I was going to see how things went with them and if they started looking a little pale or weren't developing, I'd start adding Flourish. Does the hairgrass need much fertilization in the water column? I figured the Eco Complete would be enough, but I do have some Flourish I use in my other tank, so I can start adding it.

As far as the sand thing goes, I did it for experimentation. There was a lot of talk on another forum about doing the layering thing, so I wanted to try it as well, just to see what all the fuss was about. I'm moving at the end of this month and decided that, if the sand got too compacted in areas where I couldn't stir it a little during water changes, I could change the tank around a bit and get rid of the sand. The kribensis that live in the tank spend a lot of their time poking around in it, as well, and I'm impressed that they're doing such a good job of mixing it around.

I've read the info on fertilization that I was linked to in another post, but I'm still not sure how that would work in some tanks, especially this one. It seems like, in this case (with Anubias and hairgrass) that I should keep the water column bare of nutrients, other than fertilizer. However, I'll concede that I'm really new to the idea of dosing anything other than a regular fertilizer, so if anyone has any specific guidance for this tank, it'd be much appreciated.

The cyano that had started to shrivel yesterday is almost completely gone at this point. I think, at this point, I'm going to start with Flourish and look around for some good test kits. The Lamotte ones are off limits (dunno if I can make the next rent payment, even) but if anyone else has any suggestions, I'm open.

Dear C_perugiae,

I don't know about eco complete but most special plant substrates you can buy help a little with iron, but thats it as far as nutrients go.

You can go two ways:

Test kit way:
Buy some really good test kits ($200-$300) worth, LaMotte, Hach), and maintain 10 ppm NO3, 1-2 ppm PO4, and 1-2 ppm Fe with traces added. You wil have to test every day until you see the trend in the tank. There should be plenty of K in the tank from KNO3.

Tom Barr's Estimative Index:
Add 10 ppm NO3, 1-2 ppm PO4, and 1-2 ppm Fe with traces twice per week. Do one 50% water change once per week. Test kits are optional. Per the math, the 50% water change limits the max of what you put into the tank to twice the weekly amount. So asuming the plants won't take in any of the nutrients (they will, you just don't know how much) the maximum concentration in your tank will be 40 ppm NO3, 2-4 ppm PO4, and 2-4 ppm Fe and traces. These are the max that can occur in your tank, but since the plants will absorb some of this the actuall ppms for each nutrient will be less. These maximum amounts are OK. So what you are doing is providng the plants with more than enough nutrients to grow without over doing it. These excess amounts will not produce algae. What you are doing is providing nutrients for your plants without using test kits.

I would order chemicals from Greg Watson's web site (very cheap): 1 # of KH2PO4, KNO3, and CSM+B.

If use use Flourish for the iron be sure to put 1-2 PPM in the tank! There is .39% iron in Flourish. Do not follow the instructions on the bottle, otherwise your plants will not have enough iron. Florish does not have NO3, or PO4.

Regards,
Steve Pituch

Again, thanks for the replies, guys. I know I could figure this stuff out if I did enough homework, but I'm already carrying a full load at college and working a ton, so this really helps me out. I also get personal experience, which runs circles around most research I could do.

I decided to go with the approach that Spituch has suggested, by dosing nutrients and doing heavy water changes.
*Should I be adding stem plants to this tank? Right now, it's the hairgrass, Anubias, a little Bolbitis, and a couple onions (C. natans). Oh, can't forget the water lettuce
*I am kicking around the idea of trying DIY yeast just for the experience. Does anyone have any tips besides the usual recipes that are all over the internet? Anyone have luck adding a check valve to the line, or am I asking the bottle to blow up if I stick one on there?
*I'm also prepared to trade in a ton of crypts and some Ammania gracilis for store credit to get a CO2 system. I know the LFS owner well and he's going to try to cut me some deals (like wholesale prices) so I can get another pressurized system and grow some Anubias for the store. He's also well aware that the system may someday fuel a calcium reactor and they're always looking for frags...

Just wanted to add that the kribs are death on shrimp... absolute death. They think it's fun to team up on ghost shrimp, so I'm not going to gamble the money on Amanos at this point. Mr. Death pulls off their legs as the Mrs. holds them by the face. I have a few otos that the Congos and kribs leave alone, so I could stick a couple more of those guys in there, but I know they're not going to touch cyano. No one likes that stuff, IME.

I have the Walstad and read it last summer. I'm not too hot on her methods... they work wonderfully, I'm sure, but that's not really the artistic impression I'm looking for. I don't think that what I try to accomplish, aesthetically, is going to happen with a low-tech tank. That's what happens when a newb pulls Amano books before anything else.

As far as Eco-Complete goes, it's some pretty amazing stuff. I has more nutrients in it than Flourite does and some of the small tanks I've set up for the LFS have had amazing results with little fertilization and no CO2. I'll link you to the one that comes to mind right away... this nanocube has just the regular 24 watts of PC that it comes with:
http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ce...detail?.dir=/Store+Displays&.dnm=Nanocube.jpg

When I get a chance, I'll find an ad for Eco-Complete or type out the label on the bag. I really like this stuff (I know my opinion doesn't hold a lot of clout; I'm a newb with the advanced plant stuff )