[Robert Hudson]

IMO, the real reason to encourage newbies to start with rapidly growing stemmies is to let them taste a bit of success. Once you get a few years under your belt, you can then set off to do whatever you'd like.

I think people here are missing the point, the reason that for the last decade the mode of thinking has been to start a tank with fast growing stem plants. The reason for this was to control algae, nothing else. This line of thinking always suggested that in a new tank, particularly during the first 90 days, 70 to 90% of the tank space planted with fast growing stems would break in the tank and get it through the rough period of new tank syndrome. It is algae problems during this critical period that discourages most newbies.

So how do you guys alternatively deal with this issue if you do not start with stemmies?

 

[Robert Hudson]

So even if you are planting all slow growing plants, like all Anubias, or all Cryps, more is still better than less? Its still makes a difference? Interesting... remember we are talking about starting a NEW tank with FISH. Cycling, ammonia spikes... unstable conditions, BGA, BBA, green water, hair algae, ICH...

I also seem to remember that Amano instructs people to start the tank with nothing but a huge number of Yamato shrimp, (no fish) for the first 60 to 90 days, and then replace a large part of the shrimp with a small number of fish and then gradually add more fish over the next several months. These instructions were on Amanos Europian distributors WEB site, what were they called, Vectra, Vector...something like that. They are out of buisness now. At that time they were the only English translation of Amano.

So with nothing but slow growing plants, maybe fishless cycling isn't a bad idea after all?

Which would include constant water changes, using organic removal media, careful montoring of the light cycle, seeding the filter, etc.

That makes sense, but the only problem with doing frequent large water changes during the time the tank is cycling is that it messes up the cycling. You more or less have to allow the ammonia spikes to happen in order for the bacteria to colonize.

 

[Robert Hudson]

True, but it takes 60 to 90 days for the bacteria to colonize and the cycle to be complete. If the plants are not growing fast enough to consume the ammonium, then its left to the bacteria, and then its no different than a more typical tank without plants. Sure, you can do water changes to lessen the spikes and keep your fish healthy, but everything is still going to be very unstable. Thats just the way I'm looking at it. Its frustrated me in the past.

 

[Robert Hudson]

If we're referring to waiting for populations of bacteria that convert ammonia => nitrite => nitrate, then I don't see the point. Use a bunch of plants and keep the bioload low. Any ammonia that shows up will be easily consumed.

Thats the whole point! If you have a "bunch of plants", fast growing stem plants, ammonia will be quickly used up, BUT if you don't start with fast growing plants, ammonium will NOT be readily consumed by the plants and you will get high, dangerous spikes until the tank cycles, and with high ammonia spikes you are also more likely to have algae problems... right? eep:

 

[Robert Hudson]

My old friend Robert made the following comment on APD recently,

We have the information, techniques, and technology available to do almost
> whatever we wish with aeration, current, filtration, feeding, water
> management, lighting, planting, etc., through the whole gamut of tank
> management practices. But hobbyists still do manage to stunt fish,
> suffocate fish in planted tanks (no mean trick there), kill fish in uncycled
> tanks, set incompatible and overstocked Noah's ark tanks, and somehow fail
> to get the message that captive aquatic critters should be bigger, stronger,
> healthier and far, far longer-lived than their wild kin.

If people can restrain themselves from overstocking a tank with fish, and introduce fish very very slowly, and be very very patient, then I think you can start a tank with whatever plants you want with as little or as many as you want, but most people are not that patient and are always looking for short cuts. On the other hand, heavily stocking a tank with fast growing stem plants gives a person more of a safety net if things get out of wack. It sounds to me as if Aaron and other people who are successful at starting an aquascape right from the start are willing to introduce fish very slowly. Its an important distinction.