The difference in the 'pros'...
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If you don't start with lots of fast growers you need to fertilize accordingly. One should also still start with LOTS of plants in the aquascape. For example, it wouldn't be a good idea to start a 40 gallon breeder Iwagumi scape with only HC and start with one small patch of HC. That's asking for trouble. Taking the time to invest in enough plants or grow out enough plants to start with is key.
Also, having variable lighting helps. You can keep the photoperiod shorter to begin with while the plants grow in. Amano often only uses 3 hours of metal halide lighting during his 10 hour photoperiods. The cfls that are on the rest of the time are more for viewing than for growing.
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Very important point! As I watched Amano build the scape at the convention, I was amazed at how many plants he was planting in there. From where I was sitting, I couldn't believe he was finding room for planting that many plants, AND he was doing most of the stems in groups of 2 as I recall him mentioning. Another personal myth busted!
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So even if you are planting all slow growing plants, like all Anubias, or all Cryps, more is still better than less? Its still makes a difference? Interesting... remember we are talking about starting a NEW tank with FISH. Cycling, ammonia spikes... unstable conditions, BGA, BBA, green water, hair algae, ICH...
I also seem to remember that Amano instructs people to start the tank with nothing but a huge number of Yamato shrimp, (no fish) for the first 60 to 90 days, and then replace a large part of the shrimp with a small number of fish and then gradually add more fish over the next several months. These instructions were on Amanos Europian distributors WEB site, what were they called, Vectra, Vector...something like that. They are out of buisness now. At that time they were the only English translation of Amano.
So with nothing but slow growing plants, maybe fishless cycling isn't a bad idea after all?
I also seem to remember that Amano instructs people to start the tank with nothing but a huge number of Yamato shrimp, (no fish) for the first 60 to 90 days, and then replace a large part of the shrimp with a small number of fish and then gradually add more fish over the next several months. These instructions were on Amanos Europian distributors WEB site, what were they called, Vectra, Vector...something like that. They are out of buisness now. At that time they were the only English translation of Amano.
So with nothing but slow growing plants, maybe fishless cycling isn't a bad idea after all?
That makes sense, but the only problem with doing frequent large water changes during the time the tank is cycling is that it messes up the cycling. You more or less have to allow the ammonia spikes to happen in order for the bacteria to colonize.
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No video for now.. but I posted a new thread with trimming pictures...How about it Ghazanfar? You wouldn't need to edit it perfectly, just post it on line for others to look at?
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?p=435803#post435803
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Actually I think that is a myth dispelled. Most of the bacteria colonize on surfaces, mainly substrate, biomedia, glass not to mention all the plants that are in the tank.
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True, but it takes 60 to 90 days for the bacteria to colonize and the cycle to be complete. If the plants are not growing fast enough to consume the ammonium, then its left to the bacteria, and then its no different than a more typical tank without plants. Sure, you can do water changes to lessen the spikes and keep your fish healthy, but everything is still going to be very unstable. Thats just the way I'm looking at it. Its frustrated me in the past.
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Yeah, I try not to add many fish in a new setup. If I do I add mostly ottos and shrimp for algae cleanup purposes. Eventually adding fish, say 4-6 weeks into the setup, will help to speed the cycle to completion.
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What "cycle" are we talking about here exactly?
If we're referring to waiting for populations of bacteria that convert ammonia => nitrite => nitrate, then I don't see the point. Use a bunch of plants and keep the bioload low. Any ammonia that shows up will be easily consumed.
There isn't much evidence that bacterial processing of ammonia in a nicely planted setup is all that important.
If we're talking about waiting until the bacterial, algal, microbial, and invertebrate populations stabilize then that I agree with. Despite what we'd like to think, our little glass boxes are enormously complex little systems. Our understanding of the underlying physiology and biochemistry is pretty limited.
Waiting a while to add fish is probably a good idea, but it isn't for the same reason that one would do it for the standard fish-only tank.
If we're referring to waiting for populations of bacteria that convert ammonia => nitrite => nitrate, then I don't see the point. Use a bunch of plants and keep the bioload low. Any ammonia that shows up will be easily consumed.
There isn't much evidence that bacterial processing of ammonia in a nicely planted setup is all that important.
If we're talking about waiting until the bacterial, algal, microbial, and invertebrate populations stabilize then that I agree with. Despite what we'd like to think, our little glass boxes are enormously complex little systems. Our understanding of the underlying physiology and biochemistry is pretty limited.
Waiting a while to add fish is probably a good idea, but it isn't for the same reason that one would do it for the standard fish-only tank.
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Thats the whole point! If you have a "bunch of plants", fast growing stem plants, ammonia will be quickly used up, BUT if you don't start with fast growing plants, ammonium will NOT be readily consumed by the plants and you will get high, dangerous spikes until the tank cycles, and with high ammonia spikes you are also more likely to have algae problems... right?
eep:
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My old friend Robert made the following comment on APD recently,
If people can restrain themselves from overstocking a tank with fish, and introduce fish very very slowly, and be very very patient, then I think you can start a tank with whatever plants you want with as little or as many as you want, but most people are not that patient and are always looking for short cuts. On the other hand, heavily stocking a tank with fast growing stem plants gives a person more of a safety net if things get out of wack. It sounds to me as if Aaron and other people who are successful at starting an aquascape right from the start are willing to introduce fish very slowly. Its an important distinction.
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I think there is one more aspect to the lots of stems approach, they just take off growing as soon as you put them in the tank like a ammonia sponge, while the harder to grow plants sit and adjust to the new conditions for a few weeks maybe melt some and add to the problem. The experienced aquarium keeper can wait on the fish so the ammonia volume is so low they avoid the side effects. How much ammonia are the plants really consuming before they are growing good? They also know when to do a large water change or when to let nature take its own course and just stick to there start-up routine.
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I think that the key to starting a tank is short photo-periods, this allows the plants to remain healthy but prevents a lot of algae growth... Also as mentioned by other people adding fish slowly and after a month or so is important, you need a base colony of bacteria.
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