Aquatic Plant Forum banner
141 - 160 of 160 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,041 Posts
House.

What do you think this actually means?

"EI with KNO3, Iron and Trace element, twice a week with every water change."
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,373 Posts
House.

What do you think this actually means?

"EI with KNO3, Iron and Trace element, twice a week with every water change."
That tank must be driven pretty hard (6x36 T5H0), so he's using EI adding extra KNO3 and supplementing with extra Iron and micros. It sounds like he's changing the water twice a week.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
373 Posts
ADA points at PO4 for algae. But this is related to the way they limit nutrients.

In the case of using EI, it may not be PO4 because the other nutrients are kept at a different level. i would say, in the case of an EI tank, if you're doing it right, the main culprit for algae is CO2.

Basically, ADA gets very close to the limits, so PO4 comes in. EI does not, so CO2 comes in. (Assuming light is adequate and organic build-up is kept in check for both cases).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
96 Posts
That tank must be driven pretty hard (6x36 T5H0), so he's using EI adding extra KNO3 and supplementing with extra Iron and micros. It sounds like he's changing the water twice a week.
He is "stormy" in my-mac.net and aquaticquotient.com, and it seems he has stopped dosing
PO4 for at least a year. So the concept he uses is probably not to "cover all bases" but
"not adding what is not needed".

http://www.my-mac.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15968#p148609

People sometime conveniently use the word "EI" or "PMDD" for DIY ferts.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,373 Posts
He is "stormy" in my-mac.net and aquaticquotient.com, and it seems he has stopped dosing
PO4 for at least a year. So the concept he uses is probably not to "cover all bases" but
"not adding what is not needed".

http://www.my-mac.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15968#p148609

People sometime conveniently use the word "EI" or "PMDD" for DIY ferts.
Not to argue, but I think you need to re-read his post. :rolleyes: The tank has a loaded substrate (AS) so especially when the tank is young, you don't need more than micros and K, the AS provides the rest and he is dosing exta FE. The tank is driven hard with lighting 6 x T5H0 and not necessarily dosed to the high-end of EI because of he substrate. Of course EI is DIY I mean NPK is NPK.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
96 Posts
Not to argue, but I think you need to re-read his post. :rolleyes: The tank has a loaded substrate (AS) so especially when the tank is young, you don't need more than micros and K, the AS provides the rest and he is dosing exta FE. The tank is driven hard with lighting 6 x T5H0 and not necessarily dosed to the high-end of EI because of he substrate. Of course EI is DIY I mean NPK is NPK.
I just pointed out that he didn't dose PO4. :cool:

And "I normally let the plants tell me what is needed and what is not"
doesn't sound much like EI (it may be or may not be). Especially when
he was saying that in fertilizing context.

EI is to dose nutrients (ferts) in excess so you don't have to worry about them.
And just concentrate on light and CO2.

Yes, you can "customize" EI by try reducing the dosing until you see deficiency
and step back to the previous level. But this is the "gray zone" here.
Because if the reason for doing that is economy and efficiency, you are still doing EI.
But if the reason is to avoid algae, then it's not EI anymore. Even though the
two executions are the same.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,373 Posts
I just pointed out that he didn't dose PO4.

And "I normally let the plants tell me what is needed and what is not"
doesn't sound much like EI. Especially when he was saying that in fertilizing context.

EI is to dose nutrients (ferts) in excess so you don't have to worry about them.
And just concentrate on light and CO2. :cool:
But he does use PO4. Why don't you re-read his post. He was joking about not dosing PO4 for a year and again a newer setup with AS doesn't need much, other than K and Micros. Usually one adds more ferts initially and then 'dials' it in more once they learn their setup. EI stands for 'Estimate' and not 'Excessive'
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
765 Posts
Discussion Starter · #150 ·
niko,

So I read the redfield thread and I gotta say: that's a lot of pain. Is the process of finding your ideal ratio and thinking about the daily input and uptake process really less pain than you've had implementing water column dosing the way houseofcards, K Randall, etc, etc are doing it? I still have a hard time understanding this.

I'm going to be stubborn and argue it's not that hard when you add soil, CO2, and adjustable light, which again I think is what you're saying. So... here's another hat in the ring. An attempt at a best practices aquarium with the first time I've set up a tank with kind of nice ADAish stuff (fake lily pipes and glass not pictured, whatever GH/KH happens with these stones + AquaSoil, etc). Right now I'm thinking Java fern 'Trident', Bolbitis, and Anubias nana petite, with maybe an ET or something to add another shade of green and be my fast grower. What do you think? Help me grow it.

(Another thread?)




My bet is I can leave this thing alone, let the AS leech, and dose some in the water column if I use something like ET or Stargrass as an indicator. (Relatively fast grower, shows different shades of color, responsive to nutrients.)

If I skip the water column dosing and just leave it alone + water changes, I bet I'll still end up with pretty good plants. I might end up moving more towards, say, that Crypt affinis 'red' that's floating around instead of a faster growing lighter green plant for my splash of color if I wanted every plant in the tank to look really nice and let the soil do all the work.

Either way I am doing water changes and getting algae out of the tank/adding algae eaters my first few months.

Is that plan EI or ADA?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,373 Posts
..So I read the redfield thread and I gotta say: that's a lot of pain. Is the process of finding your ideal ratio and thinking about the daily input and uptake process really less pain than you've had implementing water column dosing the way houseofcards, K Randall, etc, etc are doing it? I still have a hard time understanding this.
Is that plan EI or ADA?
Wet, that looks like a nice setup!

The first 6-8 months with a fertile substrate like AS is totally different long-term. Most can probably leave it alone and it will do pretty well. You just need to watch your light and do water changes religiously and add some K. ADA is like substrate for dummies. Year 1-2 things gets more difficult both from organic buildup and dosing. Many blow the setup at startup because they just don't do what their suppose to do. Being a micro-manager of ferts (no pun) is just not feasible for many.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,116 Posts
Wet,

I don't know why you are asking how to run that tank. Isn't it obvious?

There is a a well known individual who has experimented extensivelly to come up with the best and most practical method to run a planted tank. Many people have followed his advice and have had great success. There are many pictures of his own beatuiful tanks on the internet.

Follow him. That has got to be the best advice ever.

 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,373 Posts
Wet,

I don't know why you are asking how to run that tank. Isn't it obvious?

There is a a well known individual who has experimented extensivelly to come up with the best and most practical method to run a planted tank. Many people have followed his advice and have had great success. There are many pictures of his own beatuiful tanks on the internet.

Follow him. That has got to be the best advice ever.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
i have been into tanks longer then i can remember maybe 40 years or so i learn all the time reading the posts but mainly from the people who posted on what niko started here thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
Yes,, blanket statement's as to what other's may or may not be doing,, or without any shred of truth are not very helpful.
Likewise,, attack's on other people who aren't available for their defense .
Have spoke to Tom Barr on a few ossasion's, and although other's have attributed the estimative index dosing to him,,He will readily admit that he did not invent the method, but rather expierimented with other already established method(s) and tweaked them,or it a bit.
Most would agree that EI was /is not carved in stone.Many of the formula's available are similar for particular tank size, but have noted plus or minus in front of recommended amount's of NPK.
Believe plant's can/will tell you or I what may or may not be needed in what proportion's, once we begin to observe them in earnest. EI to me,and variant's thereof,,,are simply a way to eliminate one variable out of many . Same with rich substrates.
Original question/title of this particular thread appear's to me,, to have been answered long ago.(rich substrate).
Other's can continue kicking this dead horse ,but to what end?:bored:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
235 Posts
Bringing "This Old Thread" to the top again. Well, I've been away for 3 weeks, then came home, and between "real life', jet lag and an airplane cold, haven't been able to TOUCH my tanks since I got home, other than to top them up with water. While I was gone, my son topped up the water as needed and fed the fish twice a week. No dosing of supplements. I haven't dosed since I got home, either.

The two nanos with higher light have algae on the glass and need MAJOR trimming, but otherwise are healthy. In my older 75G, (about 10 years old, I'd guess? When did Flourite come out? This was a beta test tank for Flourite) there's no algae on the glass the plants look healthy... except that SOMEONE got too hungry and munched a bunch of plants. Not sure who to blame, but I suspect the P. dennisoni, just due to the amount of damage. (everyone else in the tank is fairly small)

Below, I've posted a photo of the new 75 Rimless, set up at the end of Oct. This is a high light, pressurized CO2, ADA Amazonia system, regularly supplemented with NPK and traces until I left. As I mentioned in a previous post, I purposely made sure the plants were "fat" with "luxury use" nutrients before I left, and cut the lighting some, by not having 2 of the 4 bulbs come on for the middle 4 hours per day. (the other two tubes remained on their 10 hour per day cycle) But it has been 5 weeks(plus 3 days, but who's counting ;)) now, with NO maintenance other than topping up and twice a week fish feeding. (I suspect, whenever the gurgle of the spray bar bothered my son's TV watching too much ;))

I'll leave the judgement to you. I lost the HC foreground, (not surprising) but the small amounts of ET I had planted are doing fine. Everything else obviously needs some trimming but is very healthy looking, and the glass is clear of algae. Does this look like a tank that needs daily (or weekly) babying?

I'd be surprised if ANY type of aquarium, planted or not, would do any better.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
What I can't wrap my brain around is WHY EI doesn't result in algal blooms. My understanding is that it depends on guaranteeing that there is more than enough (i.e., anexcess) of micros, macros, light, & CO2. It would seem that while these conditions would allow maximal plant growth, it would seem that algae would be able to use the excess for growth. Do the plants put out something that suppresses algal growth when they are growing well? EI has seemed counterintuitve to me, it seems like it should creat algae issues. Is it the large water changes that are actually the key by removing some sort of chemicals that when they build up permit/ facilitate algal growth?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
When the plants are thriving and lighting is moderate, there are usually no "trigger" events that create algae.

"Trigger" events are deficiencies that stall plants, cycling tanks, or extra organics.

EI if done right eliminates trigger events through water changes and extra fertilization.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,406 Posts
What I can't wrap my brain around is WHY EI doesn't result in algal blooms. My understanding is that it depends on guaranteeing that there is more than enough (i.e., anexcess) of micros, macros, light, & CO2. It would seem that while these conditions would allow maximal plant growth, it would seem that algae would be able to use the excess for growth. Do the plants put out something that suppresses algal growth when they are growing well? EI has seemed counterintuitve to me, it seems like it should creat algae issues. Is it the large water changes that are actually the key by removing some sort of chemicals that when they build up permit/ facilitate algal growth?
I have wondered these exact same questions for many years. I'm not totally convinced by any of the answers I've found yet. In lab we grew algae using the same nutrients we use for our tanks and made huge colonies of algae, so there doesn't seem to be anything about the nutrients that favors plants over algae, yet when the two are together plants are favored.

There may be chemicals the plant puts out to stop algae, there may be products that build up and promote algae growth. Unfortunately I don't see how you could test for this at the hobbyist level.

As evanluke mentioned there are certainly trigger events for some species of algae like high ammonia = green water etc... however, I'm not sure that you can argue EI eliminates trigger events. EI rapidly changes the conditions from one point to another. A large water change drops the levels of chemicals in the water, then when you add fertilizers the levels spike to their highest concentrations until the next dosage. So, say you add 15 ppm KNO3 at the start of the week, then by day 3 the KNO3 level is low at 2-5 ppm, then suddenly you add KNO3 back to 15. These sorts of events are "trigger" events since they are rapid changes in a short time frame, but they don't cause algae with EI. This is the mystery of aquatic plants... I'd love to get a real answer one day but it seems unlikely.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
To me EI is quite sound in theory.

One of the foundational principles is that nutrient levels can vary quite significantly so long as none of them fall below levels that are considered limiting for plants.

This explains why the instability with levels cause by large water changes and dosing right afterwards does not cause problems.

The theory has a bit of a wild card in CO2 which is hard to measure and tricky to keep stable at non-limiting levels.
 
141 - 160 of 160 Posts
Top