I have algae problem in my newly set NPT. Soil and gravel layers are in usual thickness. Algae covers both gravel and plant leaves. I brush them; change water etc. What intriguing for me is that there are bubbles, lots of bubbles produced by brown and blue-green algae on gravel, but no bubbles on plant leaves. Not a single bubble on leaves even if the surface of them is completely clear of algae. Bubbles on algae come after 1-2 hours of lighting. If water is saturated by oxygen, there must be bubbles on plants too. Any ideas?
kemalturkoz
Algae doesn't need much to thrive.
Is this a new tank? How much plants do you have? How much light do you have?
A lot of light usually drive algae.
Is this a new tank? How much plants do you have? How much light do you have?
A lot of light usually drive algae.
This doesn't sound good. Algae are photosynthesizing and generating oxygen but plants aren't.
I suspect that you've got an over-rich substrate that is severely anaerobic. Plants can't keep their roots safely oxygenated so they are going downhill. Meanwhile, algae without such "root worries" is thriving, pulling all CO2 out of the water and further hastening the demise of your plants.
My guess is that the soil and/or the gravel layer is too deep. This is common problem and can be fixed fairly easily, but I'd like to see a picture of this tank before going off on a tangent.
I suspect that you've got an over-rich substrate that is severely anaerobic. Plants can't keep their roots safely oxygenated so they are going downhill. Meanwhile, algae without such "root worries" is thriving, pulling all CO2 out of the water and further hastening the demise of your plants.
My guess is that the soil and/or the gravel layer is too deep. This is common problem and can be fixed fairly easily, but I'd like to see a picture of this tank before going off on a tangent.
I was not expecting legendary Ms Walstad, herself to reply my post. I really feel honored. I have read your book (both editions) with great joy. Thank you. I also thank to other members who replied my post.
I am attaching pictures of my tank. Image0 file shows tiny whitish dots under fish, on the gravel. They are gas bubbles (sorry for poor quality of the photo) Image 1 and 2 shows algae on the gravel. They were much denser. These photos were taken the day after a serious cleaning and ~%80 water change. I know they will come back. Last image, Image3, shows the tank as a whole.
Thickness of soil is 3- 3,5cm. Gravel is 2,5cm, each gravel has a diameter of 3- 4mm. I was completely sure that soil thickness was 2,5 cm (1 inch) when i set the tank. But, after your warning, I measured again, and surprisingly, I have found out that it is thicker than 2,5 cm ��
Plants: I bought Lobelia Cardinalis, parvula, Ludwigia Repens Rubin, Cryptocoryne wendtii, echinodorus amazonicus, hygrophilia difformis, Jawa Fern. (Lobelia cardinalis was comeratively recently added. They are totally submersed and couldn't have build roots yet)
I tried a dry start because of my choice parvula as a carpet plant. Parvula leaves died - composted but in 2-3 weeks, but it it gave new and healthy leaves. Ludwigia and cryptocoryne was very happy in dry start and thriving very fast. Hygrophilia was also in a very good condition, it changed Leave shapes according to dry start / emersed form and kept on getting longer quite fast. Jawa Fern was alive but not so happy. I guess dry start is not a good choice for Jawa Fern. Amazonicus leaves dried fast but gave new leaves quickly, although they also dried very fast.
There was a green-blue algae even during dry start period. They covered some parts of the gravel. Usually more humid parts. I didn't know water level should have been shallower than surface of gravel. Water was on the surface of gravel, so I guess blue green algae (bacteria) got iron from the soil by photoreduction and proliferate there.
After six weeks , parvula was alive and healthy but far from covering the gravel inspite of pruning. I read somewhere that parvula would grow faster if I fill the tank. I thought roots were already esatblished so, i could give a try. I filled the tank because my daughter was also very impatient and urging me to fill it and bring fish. I Left upper parts of hygrophilia and Ludwigia in emersed position for aerial advantage against algae. First week was good. pH was 7,6 Ammonia, nitrit and nitrate was around zero. There were little algae on the gravel.
Then I put 3 cherry shrimps They were happy. Then probably I made a mistake and bought two Ram chiclids and put 4 white cloud mountain fish to aquarium from my water garden (I have a water pot in the balcony with white cloud mountain fish in it which is there for four years including freezing winter season). I call it "a mistake" because, there was already an algae problem. I shouldn’t have bought fish before I win the fight against algae. I had green mat algae and blue-green algae, probably some brown algae too. But I introduced fish to tank at this stage because I couldn't stand anymore to my daughter's insistence.
When I see lots of bubbles on algae, but not on plant leaves, I thought they are O2 and algae used HC03, but plants could not use it, so plants can not make sufficient photosynthesis. That's why I saw bubbles on the algae only. Also, photosyntesis of algae increased pH, which further reduced CO2 in the water and made thing worse for plants.
Then I have built a plan against algae:
1. I see algae only where the light, (especially sunlight for 1 hour) touches. So, I pasted black paper to the glass from bottom to end of gravel, so that soil and gravel would not be exposured to direct sonlight. Because most intensive blue-green algae grow was at the junction of gravel/ water and glass. I think they grow with the light because of too much iron in the soil and bia photoreduction, algae use that iron.
2. I bought HCO3 using plants, egeria densa and aceratophylum demersum/hornwort to compete with algae. (aceratophylum demersum/Hornwort hasn’t arrived yet).
3. I also bought pistia as floating plant. to use nutritients that are necessary for algae. I put some house plants to tank water, namely, Epipremnum pinnatum and put roots of usual bean into water for a similar effect, to consume nutrients.
4. I blacked out tank for 1 day, now I remove the cover, there will be indirect shade room light but I will stop direct sunlight by a curtain. I have to remove black out because I don't have a air stone. Too much respiration from animals and plants may be a problem for animals.
5. I am using an external filter with sponge and charcoal (charcoal is fairly old but hasn’t been used, it was waiting in a drower in a bag. I don’t know if it will be effective) to reduce DOC- Fe in the water.
This is my whole story. I would be very happy if you can help me.
I am attaching pictures of my tank. Image0 file shows tiny whitish dots under fish, on the gravel. They are gas bubbles (sorry for poor quality of the photo) Image 1 and 2 shows algae on the gravel. They were much denser. These photos were taken the day after a serious cleaning and ~%80 water change. I know they will come back. Last image, Image3, shows the tank as a whole.
Thickness of soil is 3- 3,5cm. Gravel is 2,5cm, each gravel has a diameter of 3- 4mm. I was completely sure that soil thickness was 2,5 cm (1 inch) when i set the tank. But, after your warning, I measured again, and surprisingly, I have found out that it is thicker than 2,5 cm ��
Plants: I bought Lobelia Cardinalis, parvula, Ludwigia Repens Rubin, Cryptocoryne wendtii, echinodorus amazonicus, hygrophilia difformis, Jawa Fern. (Lobelia cardinalis was comeratively recently added. They are totally submersed and couldn't have build roots yet)
I tried a dry start because of my choice parvula as a carpet plant. Parvula leaves died - composted but in 2-3 weeks, but it it gave new and healthy leaves. Ludwigia and cryptocoryne was very happy in dry start and thriving very fast. Hygrophilia was also in a very good condition, it changed Leave shapes according to dry start / emersed form and kept on getting longer quite fast. Jawa Fern was alive but not so happy. I guess dry start is not a good choice for Jawa Fern. Amazonicus leaves dried fast but gave new leaves quickly, although they also dried very fast.
There was a green-blue algae even during dry start period. They covered some parts of the gravel. Usually more humid parts. I didn't know water level should have been shallower than surface of gravel. Water was on the surface of gravel, so I guess blue green algae (bacteria) got iron from the soil by photoreduction and proliferate there.
After six weeks , parvula was alive and healthy but far from covering the gravel inspite of pruning. I read somewhere that parvula would grow faster if I fill the tank. I thought roots were already esatblished so, i could give a try. I filled the tank because my daughter was also very impatient and urging me to fill it and bring fish. I Left upper parts of hygrophilia and Ludwigia in emersed position for aerial advantage against algae. First week was good. pH was 7,6 Ammonia, nitrit and nitrate was around zero. There were little algae on the gravel.
Then I put 3 cherry shrimps They were happy. Then probably I made a mistake and bought two Ram chiclids and put 4 white cloud mountain fish to aquarium from my water garden (I have a water pot in the balcony with white cloud mountain fish in it which is there for four years including freezing winter season). I call it "a mistake" because, there was already an algae problem. I shouldn’t have bought fish before I win the fight against algae. I had green mat algae and blue-green algae, probably some brown algae too. But I introduced fish to tank at this stage because I couldn't stand anymore to my daughter's insistence.
When I see lots of bubbles on algae, but not on plant leaves, I thought they are O2 and algae used HC03, but plants could not use it, so plants can not make sufficient photosynthesis. That's why I saw bubbles on the algae only. Also, photosyntesis of algae increased pH, which further reduced CO2 in the water and made thing worse for plants.
Then I have built a plan against algae:
1. I see algae only where the light, (especially sunlight for 1 hour) touches. So, I pasted black paper to the glass from bottom to end of gravel, so that soil and gravel would not be exposured to direct sonlight. Because most intensive blue-green algae grow was at the junction of gravel/ water and glass. I think they grow with the light because of too much iron in the soil and bia photoreduction, algae use that iron.
2. I bought HCO3 using plants, egeria densa and aceratophylum demersum/hornwort to compete with algae. (aceratophylum demersum/Hornwort hasn’t arrived yet).
3. I also bought pistia as floating plant. to use nutritients that are necessary for algae. I put some house plants to tank water, namely, Epipremnum pinnatum and put roots of usual bean into water for a similar effect, to consume nutrients.
4. I blacked out tank for 1 day, now I remove the cover, there will be indirect shade room light but I will stop direct sunlight by a curtain. I have to remove black out because I don't have a air stone. Too much respiration from animals and plants may be a problem for animals.
5. I am using an external filter with sponge and charcoal (charcoal is fairly old but hasn’t been used, it was waiting in a drower in a bag. I don’t know if it will be effective) to reduce DOC- Fe in the water.
This is my whole story. I would be very happy if you can help me.
Attachments
I think your tank looks better than I expected. Terrific emergent growth. The plants look healthy--clean and no decomposing plant leaves.
Your substrate looks fine.
The only thing I would suggest is that you remove some of the gravel around the rooted plants. It looks like you've buried the plant's crown in the gravel (Crypts in photo #2). Rooted plants do better if the crown is above the gravel, not buried so deeply in it where it might rot.
Otherwise, I think your tank may just be going through a typical adjustment period (due to soil chaos) during the first 2-8 weeks after setup. The water changes you're doing are a good idea. Later, you should be able to level off.
My feeling is that you have a firm grip on a promising situation and have done a good job.
Your substrate looks fine.
The only thing I would suggest is that you remove some of the gravel around the rooted plants. It looks like you've buried the plant's crown in the gravel (Crypts in photo #2). Rooted plants do better if the crown is above the gravel, not buried so deeply in it where it might rot.
Otherwise, I think your tank may just be going through a typical adjustment period (due to soil chaos) during the first 2-8 weeks after setup. The water changes you're doing are a good idea. Later, you should be able to level off.
My feeling is that you have a firm grip on a promising situation and have done a good job.
EDIT: just saw two posts were made as I was writing, but I'll leave it as is 
Ok I faced BGA in my walstad bowl similar to yours. Started DSM, developed cyanobacteria before filling (I didn't know what the smell meant then), but plants were doing good. After filling up I put it close to a window to receive sunlight and I didn't do water changes, so in about 10 days all plants got totally covered with BGA. I tried daily big water changes, a blackout, fortunately without having any livestock introduced yet. I introduced ceratophyllum demersum and salvinia. So here comes the different part between our cases:
After a few days I introduced a nerite snail (actually clithon corona). It started cleaning the glass at the lower part, just where the gravel ended. I used a pinch of filter floss (held with tweezers) to gently rub leaves, stems and the glass. The problem has receded.
I believe you are in the right path, hornwort will help a lot with the water column, shrimps will keep scratching everything. If you want to free the plants of some BGA so they can photosynthesize, you can try the tweezer-floss trick, you just need extremely delicate moves and tons of patience. It could work out without doing this though...
Good luck!
Ok I faced BGA in my walstad bowl similar to yours. Started DSM, developed cyanobacteria before filling (I didn't know what the smell meant then), but plants were doing good. After filling up I put it close to a window to receive sunlight and I didn't do water changes, so in about 10 days all plants got totally covered with BGA. I tried daily big water changes, a blackout, fortunately without having any livestock introduced yet. I introduced ceratophyllum demersum and salvinia. So here comes the different part between our cases:
After a few days I introduced a nerite snail (actually clithon corona). It started cleaning the glass at the lower part, just where the gravel ended. I used a pinch of filter floss (held with tweezers) to gently rub leaves, stems and the glass. The problem has receded.
I believe you are in the right path, hornwort will help a lot with the water column, shrimps will keep scratching everything. If you want to free the plants of some BGA so they can photosynthesize, you can try the tweezer-floss trick, you just need extremely delicate moves and tons of patience. It could work out without doing this though...
Good luck!
Algae being a much simpler form of plant life (in this case - sea kelp is a form of "algae") than a stem plant and readily gives on oxygen (and uptakes CO2 reverse at night as with all photosynthetic plants).
Pearling on stem or other plants occurs but NOT always. (I only noted some on my plants if there was a nick or cut in the plant)...or at the tips. My books are long sold but Dr. Innes predates the Walsted method by decades, lol. At the time there were no heaters, filters so on - it was "au natural"... and balanced and took months to set up to allow the "bugs" to grow as the plants were added and later fish - several at a time. (I was a kid in the 50's and found these and other books at the local library - great to have in one's collection)
https://aquariumgenius.com/why-do-aquarium-plants-pearl/
Re Oxygen Saturation (I noted this after a partial water change - I had larger aquariums and syphoned about 1/4 off each other week and slowly dribbled pre heated filtered water from the top - like a "rain" in nature). Sometimes the plants would have bubbles on them but not for long.
From the same link.
This is a common misunderstanding around pearling plants
While doing the research for this short article, I looked through lots of forums and Facebook groups to find out what other people thought about pearling. It came to my attention that a lot of people thing pearling has to do with the concentration of dissolved oxygen in the water.
People think that plants pearl when the aquarium water is fully saturated with oxygen, and therefore the oxygen produced by the plant has nowhere to go but to form bubbles. This can not be the case, because then how would plants be able to pearl in a massive aquarium?
It's possible that one small plant pearls in a giant tank, and in that case there is no way that all the water is completely saturated with oxygen.
Instead, plants pearl when they are producing oxygen at a higher rate than the water can absorb. It's all about how quick oxygen can dissolve in water, and if a plant is producing more oxygen, it will start to form bubbles.
Are pearling plants healthy?
In general, plants that are pearling by themselves (without giving a CO2 boost) are very healthy and are growing rapidly. However, pearling is not a must for plants to do well. In you're looking for the pearling effect, chances are you are constantly raising the amount of light or CO2, which could cause algae to grow too.
Instead, you should be looking for healthy plant growth in your tank. All the plants that are growing are healthy. If they're not pearling it means there is a part of the plant triangle (below) that's lacking, but if there still is a balance I would prefer that scenario.
Pearling on stem or other plants occurs but NOT always. (I only noted some on my plants if there was a nick or cut in the plant)...or at the tips. My books are long sold but Dr. Innes predates the Walsted method by decades, lol. At the time there were no heaters, filters so on - it was "au natural"... and balanced and took months to set up to allow the "bugs" to grow as the plants were added and later fish - several at a time. (I was a kid in the 50's and found these and other books at the local library - great to have in one's collection)
https://aquariumgenius.com/why-do-aquarium-plants-pearl/
Re Oxygen Saturation (I noted this after a partial water change - I had larger aquariums and syphoned about 1/4 off each other week and slowly dribbled pre heated filtered water from the top - like a "rain" in nature). Sometimes the plants would have bubbles on them but not for long.
From the same link.
This is a common misunderstanding around pearling plants
While doing the research for this short article, I looked through lots of forums and Facebook groups to find out what other people thought about pearling. It came to my attention that a lot of people thing pearling has to do with the concentration of dissolved oxygen in the water.
People think that plants pearl when the aquarium water is fully saturated with oxygen, and therefore the oxygen produced by the plant has nowhere to go but to form bubbles. This can not be the case, because then how would plants be able to pearl in a massive aquarium?
It's possible that one small plant pearls in a giant tank, and in that case there is no way that all the water is completely saturated with oxygen.
Instead, plants pearl when they are producing oxygen at a higher rate than the water can absorb. It's all about how quick oxygen can dissolve in water, and if a plant is producing more oxygen, it will start to form bubbles.
Are pearling plants healthy?
In general, plants that are pearling by themselves (without giving a CO2 boost) are very healthy and are growing rapidly. However, pearling is not a must for plants to do well. In you're looking for the pearling effect, chances are you are constantly raising the amount of light or CO2, which could cause algae to grow too.
Instead, you should be looking for healthy plant growth in your tank. All the plants that are growing are healthy. If they're not pearling it means there is a part of the plant triangle (below) that's lacking, but if there still is a balance I would prefer that scenario.
Very interesting discussion!
Within an hour of adding fresh tapwater to my tanks, bubbles form on plants and solid surfaces. It is CO2. Bubbles are especially noticeable in the winter, because CO2 is more soluble in cold water. In the winter I have to be careful not to do massive water changes or the excess CO2 will kill baby fish.
Explanation: I have a well. Rain water slowly percolates through the ground picking up CO2 from the decomposition of the soil's organic matter. Once in the well's storage tank, the CO2 gas is under pressure. When I run this water into aquaria, the CO2 is no longer under pressure plus the warming in the tank makes this gas less soluble. So the CO2 forms bubbles in the tanks.
Also, because of the CO2, the pH of this fresh tapwater is often very acidic.
CO2 will bring pH down, but oxygen won't. As an experiment, I would simply measure the pH of water right after it comes out of the faucet. Let this fresh tapwater sit in a shallow bowl. If after about an hour the pH increases, you will know that the mystery bubbles are due to CO2 in the tapwater, not oxygen.
And it's not just well water that contain CO2. Even city water is under pressure in the piping system. I can think of many ways that city water might contain CO2--groundwater source, bacterial biofilms lining the pipes (busy generating CO2), chemical reactions from water treatment, etc.
Within an hour of adding fresh tapwater to my tanks, bubbles form on plants and solid surfaces. It is CO2. Bubbles are especially noticeable in the winter, because CO2 is more soluble in cold water. In the winter I have to be careful not to do massive water changes or the excess CO2 will kill baby fish.
Explanation: I have a well. Rain water slowly percolates through the ground picking up CO2 from the decomposition of the soil's organic matter. Once in the well's storage tank, the CO2 gas is under pressure. When I run this water into aquaria, the CO2 is no longer under pressure plus the warming in the tank makes this gas less soluble. So the CO2 forms bubbles in the tanks.
Also, because of the CO2, the pH of this fresh tapwater is often very acidic.
CO2 will bring pH down, but oxygen won't. As an experiment, I would simply measure the pH of water right after it comes out of the faucet. Let this fresh tapwater sit in a shallow bowl. If after about an hour the pH increases, you will know that the mystery bubbles are due to CO2 in the tapwater, not oxygen.
And it's not just well water that contain CO2. Even city water is under pressure in the piping system. I can think of many ways that city water might contain CO2--groundwater source, bacterial biofilms lining the pipes (busy generating CO2), chemical reactions from water treatment, etc.
I'm trying to think how oxygen could show up in well water. Rainwater could have oxygen, but how could groundwater have more than trivial amounts of oxygen in it? I also think the fact that oxygen doesn't easily dissolve into water also means that oxygen dissolved in water doesn't escape from water very easily either. So, the atmospheric oxygen that dissolves into rain water should stay in the water as it percolates down into the soil and rocks unless it reacts with metals in the water, oxydizing them.
I know this is a bit off-subject, but I find it very interesting to try to figure out things like this
It’s been a while since my last photo. I want to share a recent picture of my aquarium. The water is crystal clear not. There is almost no algae in the water or on the surface of the glasses eventhough light Washington accidentally left open for 24 hours for five days and fish food was used excessively. Everything is perfect. Thank you very much everyone. Particularly, Ms. Walstad.
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Yes, bubbles from a water change are air bubble, not necessarily CO2. Water under pressure hold more gasses. Once in your tank, the gasses come out of the solution.
I know my tap water does not contain high CO2, not higher than the air.
I know my tap water does not contain high CO2, not higher than the air.
Still, there is a problem.
If they were only air bubbles, I would see them on every surface in the tank. Glass, stones, gravel... But they are on the surface of plant leaves only. Plants release those bubbles as we observe in CO2 injected tanks.
I still think they are related with photosynthesis.
If they were only air bubbles, I would see them on every surface in the tank. Glass, stones, gravel... But they are on the surface of plant leaves only. Plants release those bubbles as we observe in CO2 injected tanks.
I still think they are related with photosynthesis.
Since "saturated" means no more of that gas can dissolve in the water, I disagree that tap water is saturated with anything except nitrogen and oxygen. If my tap water was saturated with Krypton I would be too weak to walk, since I am superman.
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