[digital_gods]

@Foreverknight: That giant TetraTec filter I gave you, could it be converted into a HOB K1 filter for your 180gal tank?

 

[digital_gods]

As I have mentioned that I've been running the K1 in my goldfish tank. I've been having the continuous issue of too much protein in my water column. I got four large goldfish in a 30 gallon tank with a canister filter rated for 60 gallons. The only reason I believe that it hasn't turning into bad nitrites is because the tank is non heated. I've been running half liter of K1 media for that last month. I'm happy to report that the haziness is disappearing and clearing up. I haven't done a water change in two weeks or made any other changes except dividing the half liter of media between two x one liter bottles to increase flow.

 

[niko]

This sounds interesting!

But I think to double check the efficiency of the 2 (now) bottles of K1 you could do a reversal; Once you are happy with the K1 (definitely seeded + you have figured out the best flow rate through it) you can remove both bottles. See what happens in the next few days.

I'm normally against using test kits because they are very inaccurate. But if you are going to actually do what I suggest I think you can use a cheap test kit to catch the trend. Not necessarily absolute numbers but just the trend - increasing NO2 or NO3 or leveling or decreasing. I'd also check for NH4 after removing the K1 - it may actually spike for a short time. And of course the more tests you run back to back the better - to try to avoid accidental results.

I think that K1 will definitely work but we need to figure out, at least in general terms, what are the optimal:

1. Air Flow for certain amount of K1 (I guess it would be hard to overkill the K1 with air bubbles, but do we know for sure it's impossible?)
2. Flow for certain size container (because that could impact the movement, collisions and self cleaning/retention of old/new bacteria)
3. Shape of the container (round maybe better for some reason - smoother movement or something)

And of course the big question - How much K1 one needs for certain size tank with certain fish load in it.

Overall I think if the K1 does work well finding above "optimal" factors maybe pretty irrelevant. I really, really hope to hear more and good news about K1!

--Nikolay

 

[foreverknight]

Large quantities of oxygen are needed by the Nitrosomonas & Nitrobacter bacteria ... 4.3mg of oxygen is required to convert 1 mg of ammonia to nitrate.

 

[TAB]

I think that K1 will definitely work but we need to figure out, at least in general terms, what are the optimal:

1. Air Flow for certain amount of K1 (I guess it would be hard to overkill the K1 with air bubbles, but do we know for sure it's impossible?)
2. Flow for certain size container (because that could impact the movement, collisions and self cleaning/retention of old/new bacteria)
3. Shape of the container (round maybe better for some reason - smoother movement or something)

And of course the big question - How much K1 one needs for certain size tank with certain fish load in it.

Overall I think if the K1 does work well finding above "optimal" factors maybe pretty irrelevant. I really, really hope to hear more and good news about K1!

--Nikolay

I would bet the manufactor has that info. Rather they are willing to give it up or not in the question.

The worst that could happen is they say no.

 

[niko]

I don't think it is the best idea to get into too many details about what is needed and what not. Theory and experimental setups are one thing, aquariums have proven to be different. Yes, if someone could call the manufacturer or dig up some literature that would be great. But not with the purpose to be emulated blindly.

My point is - it would be best if we figured out more or less what is the general logic about using K1. Things like "A round container is better" or "The highest the air flow the better".

All of this empirical knowledge could be gained through experimentations in actual aquariums. That's why I follow this tread and try to keep it up.

--Nikolay

 

[digital_gods]

I'm furthering the experimenting on my end. I'm working at increasing the internal flow/rotation by relocating the air stone in different locations of the bottle.

 

[flashbang009]

Wow...

This is some serious filtration. About halfway through they adjust to show the whole sump. Wow. It looks like the media may just be moved by the turbulence from the filter movement.

 

[Ekrindul]

Wow...

This is some serious filtration. About halfway through they adjust to show the whole sump. Wow. It looks like the media may just be moved by the turbulence from the filter movement.

A tad loud. I believe in overfiltration and all, but four fish and a piece of driftwood in a bare bottom with that setup?

 

[niko]

One thing about K1... I've been wondering if it works better than a filter stuffed with Lava Rock.

When we find how much you need for certain size tank and how well it works it may turn out that Lava Rock with the same efficiency can fit in a smaller canister. Which is more practical then?

On a different note - one can spend hours looking at YouTube videos of different aquarium filter setups. Knowing what I know now I'm pretty shocked how little people know about filtration. It appears that a certain Japanese guy that we all know uses only Lava Rock to achieve the same results, or even better, as most people with huge sumps, multi-level filtration, funky designs etc. Seems to me that knowledge is indeed power.

That last video was pretty funny to me. This guy's monster fish explained a little about why he had such crazy filtration. From what I have heard people that keep big agressive fish are of certain personality. We can call them "elitists" or "overachievers". Some of these guys easily shell out thousands of dollars for certain fish. So if that is the personality indeed then the video of the sump that contained every single filtration method known to mankind may make a little more sense. Or it could be that such huge fish really need to eat a lot until they get really big and the filtration has to be that crazy. Either way - I have the feeling that with more knowledge that sump could be re-designed a little more toward simplicity.

--Nikolay

 

[flashbang009]

I seem to think that anything supplemented with oxygen will be better than the non oxygen alternative. Add to that the fact that you've got movement, and no dead spots, and i find it hard to believe the k1 isn't better.

Compare lava rock with supplemented oxygen via an oxygen reactor before the canister, then you've got a fair comparison. However, lack of movement in the lava rock makes me think dead spots are unavoidable without movement.

I think that simply having k1 in a canister with no trays to separate space and an oxygen reactor before the filter to diffuse oxygen into the water would be the best option. You get turbulence in the filter allowing for movement, you get the added benefit of oxygen, and it's outside the tank with no added equipment.

In the videos linked earlier for the k1 "bottles" the airstone provided both movement and oxygen. Why not use the canister 'pull' for the movement, and diffuse oxygen for well... the oxygen?

 

[niko]

Well, if we are talking about an out of sight + smallest possible size filter inevitably we come down to using a canister filter. A sump implies the use of an overflow box and a more complicated setup. Far from the simplicity of a canister.

If we bubble air or Oxygen through the K1 media inside a canister we will have to find a way to vent the extra gas. That means either channeling it through the outflow or having a third hose specifically for air moving out of the canister.

In the first case you can be venting the extra air or Oxygen through the outtake hose. But that means air bubbles coming out of the filter outflow, decreased flow, possible filter stalling/air lock, noise from the bubbles hitting the impeller. There could also be burping noises or swishing sounds in the tank as well as a guaranteed visual distraction in the tank from the air bubbles flowing out.

In the case of adding a third hose you have to hook it up to the tank so any water entering this venting hose does not go anywhere out of the system. The separation of air and water will be a problem. You do not want air bubbles constantly hitting the pump impeller (noise, hotter operation, decreased flow).

Both of these virtual considerations pertain to the use of a canister. A sump can solve all these problems of course.

Fluidized K1 without bubbling air could have the same efficiency as Lava Rock. But no clogging potential and no dead spot issue. Then it really could be a better choice than the Lava Rock. Even if you have to use a larger canister size I think it would be worth it. Remember that the Japanese bubble air in the tank at night and one of the reasons is to perk up the bacteria in the filter (extra Oxygen + higher pH). That could be done with K1 too.

--Nikolay

 

[digital_gods]

What about converting a protein skimmer into a k1 reactor? It fits the criteria. Water movement coming in and out of the chamber. The water travels in a cyclonic motion with continuous aeration injected into the water.

 

[TAB]

Well, if we are talking about an out of sight + smallest possible size filter inevitably we come down to using a canister filter. A sump implies the use of an overflow box and a more complicated setup. Far from the simplicity of a canister.

If we bubble air or Oxygen through the K1 media inside a canister we will have to find a way to vent the extra gas. That means either channeling it through the outflow or having a third hose specifically for air moving out of the canister.

In the first case you can be venting the extra air or Oxygen through the outtake hose. But that means air bubbles coming out of the filter outflow, decreased flow, possible filter stalling/air lock, noise from the bubbles hitting the impeller. There could also be burping noises or swishing sounds in the tank as well as a guaranteed visual distraction in the tank from the air bubbles flowing out.

In the case of adding a third hose you have to hook it up to the tank so any water entering this venting hose does not go anywhere out of the system. The separation of air and water will be a problem. You do not want air bubbles constantly hitting the pump impeller (noise, hotter operation, decreased flow).

Both of these virtual considerations pertain to the use of a canister. A sump can solve all these problems of course.

Fluidized K1 without bubbling air could have the same efficiency as Lava Rock. But no clogging potential and no dead spot issue. Then it really could be a better choice than the Lava Rock. Even if you have to use a larger canister size I think it would be worth it. Remember that the Japanese bubble air in the tank at night and one of the reasons is to perk up the bacteria in the filter (extra Oxygen + higher pH). That could be done with K1 too.

--Nikolay

You are going to have a very hard time to vent air from a canister. The best option for that would be have something it the discharge side to work as a degasing tower. Or maype a small box that would allow the air to flow out, then a gravity feed back to the tank.

 

[flashbang009]

I think you missed my point Niko. O2 from a small, underpowered air pump can be diffused in the exact same way that we diffuse co2 in reactors. Apply that concept to the inflow of the reactor, and you won't have big air bubbles going through the impeller and into your tank. You couldn't do this with the previously mentioned bottle filters because you had to move the k1 somehow. This was done by using the o2 from the airpump to help the bacteria, while at the same time utilizing it's rising action to move the k1.

Lava rock will never float. Therefore it will just sit there inside a canister. K1 however, should float and tumble inside the canister simply because of the flow through it. Attach your oxygen reactor inline on the inflow of the canister, and you've supplied your oxygen. Once the oxygen is diffused into the water, you won't need a vent hose or anything like that.

Bottom line: 'Bottle' filters need the airstone to provide oxygen and movement. Use an oxygen reactor to provide the oxygen while minimizing noise through the impeller, and use the existing flow and movement inside the canister to move the k1 around.

 

[niko]

This is of interest to this discussion. Don't know the date of the mock interview.

Taken from here:
http://aquajournal.net/na/stories_behind/index.html

Go to "[Stories Behind]" and then "Vol. 005 - Super Jet Filter"

"Aqua Journal: By the way, an external filter is considered to be the best filter for an aquatic plant layout. Why is that?

Amano: That's a generally accepted belief, but I am not so sure about it lately.

Aqua Journal: Really? You aren't sure about it?

Amano: When the oxygen content of water is low, the microorganisms inside a closed system become quite unstable. When the CO2 level is high inside a filter, the number of microorganisms decreases. On the other hand, when the oxygen level is high, the number increases. Algae seem to come and go along with this fluctuation. I am afraid that this is a short coming of an external filter. It has an advantage of retaining CO2 in water, though."

--Nikolay

 

[niko]

Flashbang,

I understood your idea, but to me for this K1 to be as horribly effective as it's supposed to be you need to blast it with a lot of Oxygen. It seems to me that what makes K1 so efficient is the short lived transitional surface that is basically wet/dry. Bubble contacting K1 and quickly flying away.

Just increasing the O2 inside the canister will certainly help a lot. No doubt. But blasting the little white plastic pieces with air bubbles seems to be the real deal and the original design idea.

I've ran CO2 into canister filters and there were no bubbles coming out of the outflow. But that was a rate of no more than 1-2 bubbles per second.

--Nikolay

 

[niko]

Another quote from the same source:
http://aquajournal.net/na/notes/005/index.html

Under "[Note's]" and then "NOTES vol.005 Nature Aquarium Filtration":

"The capability of a biological filter reaches its peak when the filter is about to start clogging. As the filter starts to clog, the water flow decreases, the oxygen level inside filter media decreases as well, and the filtering capability drops rapidly. However, if a filter pump has a high capacity (pump head), it can maintain a high water flow through the media and therefore a high filtering capacity for a long time. The pump for Super Jet Filter was developed with this in mind. However, it also requires maintenance as the filter becomes clogged to some extent. When this happens, media should be taken out and rinsed lightly to wash off dirt using water from the aquarium and taking care not to scrub off too many microbes."

A fluidized bed filter with a media like K1 would solve these problems. And not require a fancy pump either.

How avangarde...

--Nikolay

 

[JustLikeAPill]

Lava rock will never float. Therefore it will just sit there inside a canister. K1 however, should float and tumble inside the canister simply because of the flow through it. Attach your oxygen reactor inline on the inflow of the canister, and you've supplied your oxygen. Once the oxygen is diffused into the water, you won't need a vent hose or anything like that.

Perlite should float indefinitely, and it's the same consistency and size but lighter than bio rio that Amano sells. But cleaning would be a problem because it is so light. I can see it escaping down the drain.

Much cheaper than bio rio or kaldness. I can see the perlite eroding it's self if it was constantly moving though, and constantly grinding against each other.

 

[digital_gods]

I found if the media not rotating in the bottles like it should, increasing the air pressure to the stone will resolve the issue.