This is a topic I haven't seen addressed here very often. After a recent green water problem in a well-established tank with nutrient levels in order, I was wondering if any of you have any thoughts about this. I'm running 4 hang-on type power filters (200gph each on a 125 gallon tank) with the outflow modified so the water drops straight down to reduce surface turbulence/improve CO2 reactor efficiency. I have very little circulation in this tank and am concerned that my recent problem may have something to do with this. Should I install a couple power heads to get some water movement going in my tank? Or possibly install a single canister with the spray bar submerged to encourage circulation while minimizing surface agitation? Any thoughts would be much appreciated...thanks!

Russ

 

some people have noted that water movement may reduce instances of some forms of algae... i don't think you need a TON of current, but you should at least stay away from perfectly stagnant water most likely... HOWEVER i have a tank right now, perfectly stagnant, no movement at all. so far everything is ok... but it hasn't been set up long. i will get a filter when i can

JP

 

My new theory is that modifying HOB filters to reduce surface agitation (to minimize CO2 loss) is counter-productive. I have my Emperor 400 temporarily modified as you described and I've noticed that water circulation is MUCH worse because of it. Because think about how a HOB filter works... It sucks in water from along the back wall of the tank (up from the bottom into the filter intake tube) and outputs it across the top of the water (where the flow then hits the front wall of the tank and drops down), creating a kind of circular flow. But when you modify the output ramp, you're making it suck up water just like before (vertically along the back of the tank), but you're also making it output water directly counter to this (vertically downward, right in front of the intake stream). So essentially you don't get the proper current that you had before. If you watch the little air bubbles move around, you'll see this opposition of currents in the back of the tank where the bubbles TRY to make it into the filter intake (as debris also would), but are knocked away by the falling water flow. This is why I'm starting to shop for a canister filter that will let me minimize surface agitiation, but whose design allows for the placing of the input and output on opposite ends of the tank, thus creating THAT kind of flow pattern.

Sincerely,
STAT 007
Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2004

37 gallon AGA Black Seal, Emperor 400, Ebo Jager 200 W, 100% Flourite Substrate, 2x55 Watt AH Supply PC Lighting (5300K & 6400K) @ ~3.4 WPG, High-Pressure CO2.

 

I have on my tank as few as 1/2 tank volume per hour (measured with flowmeter) without any trouble.-

I think the courrent must be enough to help CO2 and others ferts diffusion, and to have more or less uniform T. More, doesnt helps, maybe doesnt hurts but...

 

Four power filters doesn't seem like very appropriate filteration for a 125 gallon tank. Despite that, I'm not sure how poor circulation contributes to green water. What's your theory?

Roger Miller

 

IMO poor circulation doesn't contribute to green water. From my experience with green water the factors which trigger it are an excess of nutrients in the water usually related to the startup of a new tank. Especially if you have a vigorous algae-eating crew which takes all the algae off your plants and glass and turns it back into soluble nutrients in your water. And especially if you fertilize heavily with Jobes sticks like I did. Anyway now that my greenwater is gone I want it back for fry food and I am having no luck producing green water when I want it.

Tank circulation IMO is a factor in promoting hair algae. I get hair algae in areas of my tank where the flow is low, especially among fine leaved plants, for example in dense clumps of pearl grass.

I don't know the best way to increase the flow, perhaps a couple of MaxiJet powerheads.

Canadian Aquatic Plant Trading Website

 

Thanks to everyone for your replies. To answer Roger's question, I was thinking that the lack of circulation was leading to stagnation, similar to what happens in a pond with poor water movement in the summer. You end up with a lot of suspended particulates that cloud the water and with a lot of light (ie direct sunlight) can quickly lead to a full-blown algal bloom...just thinking this may be what's going on in my tank. Even after 4 day blackout and 12 hours of diatom filtration it's still a little hazy. I'm checking into getting a good size canister (say Rena XP3) to boost both my filtration and circulation....Russ

 

I've seen folks attibute the poor circulation and also the lack of filter bacteria processing their fill of NH4 in tanks. But poor circulation by itself doesn't cause it I believe.
It always seems to revolve around something that leads to excess NH4.

Having good circulation with just powerheads alone and no filter will let you know if the cause is related to circulation or something else.

Two similar tanks one with good circulation and the other without will tell you something about this if you want to try this out using power heads(but some flow from a small filter for both tanks). Try it with NH4 additions and without.

See if there's any difference between the two tanks. I'd say you will not find any difference.

I have not done this but I've played with GW and NH4 a long while. I could be wrong, but I have not seen anything in my tanks to induce GW such as slowing circulation from clogged filters etc. I have plenty of experience with NH4 and GW though..........

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

Poor water circulation allows sedimant to build on leaves, blocking nutrient uptake and contributing to algae in the sense that the gunk built up on the leaves is a perfect breeding ground for algae.

Good circulation helps carry nutrients throughout the tank, bring oxygen across the tank, prevent cold spots or varying temps in different levels, and some plants simply grow better in the path of a good current.

Stagnant water always seems to have more algae. Stagnant ponds are a thick green pea soup. I used to visit this little pond way up in the hills near Palo Alto California that was stagnant. It was always covered in a disgusting thick layer of floating goo.

I'd say do your plants and fish a favor and add a couple of submersed power heads.

Robert
King admin
www.aquabotanic.com

 

Ditto,
Good circulation is important for palnts and fish alike. I circulate 575gph for a 100g tank. Even then I have little dead zones where detrius/milm builds.

James Hoftiezer

Tank Journal - Aquascape ( Latest / Archive )
Tank Journal - Parts and Construction ( Latest / Archive )

 

Thanks everyone--re Roger's reply I think that's what was happening in my 125. I've got lots of fish and plants, and the combination of poor circulation coupled with the high fish load, lots of ferts and light was causing build up on plant leaves, dead spots in the corners, suspended particulates, etc. I hooked up an Eheim 2028 with the spray bar slightly submerged in the center back of the tank. Now the only thing is to get it optimized a bit so it's not blowing my plants away! Hoping this does the trick, although I still may get a small powerhead going too. Thanks for all the help--you guys are the best!

Kindest regards,

Russ

 

This is a good topic with great sponses and I'd like to add my 2¢. The specific comparison of current and GW is answered as little barring on each other. But the other surfacing issue is current on algae. Is that correct?

Heavily planted tanks make it nearly impossible to create an even current throughout the tank. The part of my hairgrass (6-gallon tank) that has very little circulation gets some algae while the current side has none. On my 37-bowfront there is one HOT Magnum, 1 Eheim and 1 powerhead and I'm considering adding a 2nd powerhead. The plants diffuse the current so much that there is hardly any noticible current but there is no algae at all.

Current is a good think in a planted tank. I have no algae and no mulm or detritus on the substrate surface. If it takes an extra powerhead or two, then go for it.

Regards,
Carlos

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!

 

Does anybody have any good product information links for Eheim canisters? I'm looking to replace my Emperor 400 with an Eheim canister but have no idea which one to get (not only which SIZE to get, but which MODEL also).

I'm also trying to figure out EXACTLY what all they come with and what most people do about input/output options. Eheim's website isn't very good and the product descriptions at Big Al's and Drs. Foster & Smith don't elaborate on just what all you get. I'm primarily talking about intake/output options. I know Eheim has quite a few accessories like a prefilter, surface extractor, return spout, wide jet return, spary bar, blah blah blah. So if somebody could fill me in on what all I'd need to get, that'd be awesome.

Do y'all know of some websites that have more information on intake/output methods with canister Eheims. I'm wondering what the thinking is behind the optional surface extractor and the wide jet return. Also, why do some people use a spray bar for ouput instead of just a hose with a strainer?

Also, what size powerheads do you recommend, Tenor 1? Thanks.

Sincerely,
STAT 007
Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2004

37 gallon AGA Black Seal, Emperor 400, Ebo Jager 200 W, 100% Flourite Substrate, 2x55 Watt AH Supply PC Lighting (5300K & 6400K) @ ~3.4 WPG, High-Pressure CO2.

 

Hi STAT,

We have very similar sized tanks. Mine is a 36-gallon AGA bowfront with 110-watt PC lighting. I'm using the Eheim 2322, which has a heating element. In addition I have a HOT Magnum. The Eheim is biological and the HOT is mechanical (which gets rinsed bi-weekly).

We have used Eheim filters for the last 40 years and love the quality of the filters. They make NO sound at all. I haven't tried the ECOO line so no help there. I've heard they are Asian-made. But I can comment on the Classic and Pro series.

The Classic series does not have built in "quick-disconnect valves" and I don't see them listed as an option in the Foster & Smith catalog. These valves are needed to stop the water flow when the canister is detached from the system for cleaning. They were on the expensive side ($15 a piece many years ago) and a necessity. Also you have to suck on the intake tube to prime the filter. It's best to use filter bags for the different hard media. This makes cleaning much easier. I would recommend model # 2215-37 for you size tank.

The Pro series may be too large for your tank but a great filter as the improvements of self-priming, filter media baskets and built-in stop valves make it worth while.

The ECCO model # 2235 seems like a perfect size filter for you tank. It seems to have all the great features of the Pro II and a good price. I would look into this line for you tank. Sorry I don't have any first-hand experience to share.

The Surface Extractor is a great supplement although a bit tricky to get working correctly. It keeps the surface free of any oil-like build ups that can occur using all the plant supplements. There is a balancing weight that allows adjusting the flow, which is split between the surface and lower siphon functions. A rattle sound can occur if the Surface Extractor is used as the only siphon for the canister. This is caused by too much suction force and is completely dependent on the size of the canister's motor. The Extractor is made as a second siphon for larger longer tanks. An Eheim option is using two siphons on one canister. You can do this setup but I don't think it's necessary with your tank. The common method is using the Pre-Filter Module and the Extractor joined by a "Y" connector (I'm just trying to share the various methods).

Here is the rattle solution if the Extractor is used alone. Take the unit apart and put masking tape around the lead weight. This will be a sound buffer eliminating the rattle. The weight is an ingenious way to balance the flow between the bottom and top siphon. There is a control valve on the top of the entire unit that adjusts the amount of flow going to the top part of the siphon. The unit is pretty complex with several parts and very cleverly engineered.

Now for the water return. I don't use the supplied spray bar. Instead I drill holes in the siphon tube supplied with the canister and use the end-plug from the spray bar to plug the bottom. This allows you to place the return in a vertical position in the tank. I feel this creates better circulation as water is dispersed at all levels of the aquarium.

I recommend the ECCO #2235 and the Surface Extractor and drilling holes in the supplied return tube. Sorry to be so wordy and I can't remember your other questions, lol. Oh the powerhead, I use a Maxi-Jet #600 and adding a Mini-Jet 404.

Regards,
Carlos

My Edit: I put the return and siphon tubes in opposite back corners of the tank. Be careful when drilling the holes for the return that the angle of the holes go in the direction you want the flow. Do a practice run-through positioning the tube in the tank using the outside suction cups and then eyeball where the drilled holes should be placed. I've drilled a couple tubes with the holes in the wrong place, lol.
==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way

[This message was edited by Tenor1 on Thu May 08 2003 at 04:30 PM.]

 

From my own experience, stagnant water flow may have been a contributor towards a green water episode that I had. Of course this is strictly an empirical observation.

Prior to my green water episode, I was only using an Eheim 2213 Classic on my 30g planted tank. To assist in clearing up my GW, I added a Hagen powerhead quickfilter (and also used doses of Kent proclear clarifier). Even after the GW episode resolved, I left the Hagen quickfilter in my tank since it did such a great job in improving circulation. The quickfilter also does a nice job in trapping lots of detritus; the filter pad is completely saturated when I clean it every 2 weeks. The only disadvantage that I can think of is that it adds an extra piece of hardware to the tank, which needs concealing.

If you're looking to get a cannister filter, I'd recommend the Eheim classic cannister plus, since it comes with the media basket, media and quick disconnect valves. It's a great deal.

http://members.rogers.com/stanleyliu2001/aquarium.htm

 

Thanks for the info on the Classic Plant Crazy. I didn't know these came with all those things included. You can tell how long it has been since I bought one, lol.

Regards,
Carlos

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!

 

Tenor 1,

Man, right when I thought it was going to be as simple as paying $180 for the Eheim 2026 with media, you say I should get the ECCO 2235.

Do you think that'd be enough filtration for my tall 37 gallon tank?

I also had someone recommend a Rena/Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Filstar XP2 and would like your opinions on that compared to the Ehiems as they'd pertain to my application here. Thanks so much!

Sincerely,
STAT 007
Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2004

37 gallon AGA Black Seal, Emperor 400, Ebo Jager 200 W, 100% Flourite Substrate, 2x55 Watt AH Supply PC Lighting (5300K & 6400K) @ ~3.4 WPG, High-Pressure CO2.

 

i'm running a rena... they are basic, but seem to be well made. no bells and whistles (like the cool primer thing) and... the directions weren't the best... but after slopping a bunch of water on the floor, i figured out how to get it to work, and i've been very happy with it since. it's easy to clean, quiet, came with spraybar attachments, etc, plus a laminated card with cleaning instructions so you can keep it with the filter. haven't tried the eheim pro series... the ecco might be ok too for your size tank, but just letting you know i'm pretty happy with my rena and will be buying another one. i'm a poor college kid, i can't afford bells and whistles, but this seems to be basic and well built, and i respect that. quite a bit cheaper too. you could probably get an XP1... you'd have to check the recommended ratings though, i can't remember the cut-off tank sizes.

JP

PS the XP2 for sure has a nice quick-disconnect feature, and i think all of them do. it makes cleaning the thing EXTREMELY easy, i'm sure the eheim thing is similar, but i guess not on the ecco models... i dunno about you, but i like filters that are easy to clean

 

Sorry my response is a bit late STAT,

Go for the Pro II. I saw tha Classic over the weekend and it comes with the quick disconnect as previously stated. It didn't show the filter baskets, which is not that big of a deal. You can always put media in filter bags. I prefer tha newer design.

There is NOTHING wrong at all with the Classic if you choose to select that model. I have no first hand experience with the ECCO line at all but it looks good. I would prefer the German-made motor but that's because I'm Swiss, lol.

Regards,
Carlos

==============================
I try to keep the tank plain and simple but it never stays that way!

 

Is there anything wrong with just adding an airstone?

 

An airstone will cause the CO2 to escape faster.

James Hoftiezer
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